djembe zoom

Advice and questions on making and fixing instruments
By simba
#16342
Pure tyre, not a single nail!
No nail, no harm to the wood! :lol:
:D
Attachments
照片0969s.JPG
照片0969s.JPG (61.03 KiB) Viewed 1657 times
Last edited by simba on Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
By simba
#16344
You know, Wula djembe is perfect looking and has a nailed tyre foot. The tyre foot does add an indiscribable attraction to the drum which I do like very much.
Image

But putting nails into the most precious african hard heartwood(my heart pains... :evil: ) and bringing harms to the shell is no profession at all from my point of view. And this is the main reason I changed my mind and went to choose DSD as my master class djembe.
Image

Also I don't like the too simple(with no decorational function) rubber foot that DSD is using, so I made an experiment and my DIY is a total success!
Image

I hope that both Tom and Ryan can see this topic and will do something to improve your footing methods in the future, to bring new evolution into the traditional djembe. ;)
By bubudi
#16348
nicely done! i also like the raw look of the tyre and appreciate not having to put any nails or tacks into the wood. drumskulls is tidier looking, but has less character than the recycled tyre.
User avatar
By Tom
#16361
Gluing has always been an option with the rubber tire bottom, and it amounts to about the same amount of work an expense, but we never saw a reason to do so. After having built thousands of drums with rubber tire bottoms, the first complaint I've heard is from DSD (on their website) - and we've operated an extremly busy repair shop in Brooklyn for several years. The rubber mounter does need to be careful not to place a nail in an already existing hairline crack, which can sometimes be difficult to see. Also, I've seen many shops use thicker gauge nails, whereas Wula uses a very thin guage nail. As a matter of fact, the nails we use for the rubber tire bottoms are a thinner guage than decorative tacks, and most of us builders apply decorative tacks on some of our djembes, including DSD. If we determine that nails are just plain bad for wood in general, then we'll need to stop decorating with tacks and with djembe jewelry; unless we should now glue them on ;).

I do appreciate the spirit of what you are are doing, which is to try to make it better, but I believe that wood and nails go together quite nicely (have so for years), and that we shouldn't form our opinion from one photo of a nail in a crack, or any accompanying hype.
But then again, if the hype grows, and if players begin demanding to have their rubber glued rather than nailed, then we'll happily oblige.
By simba
#16367
Thanks for everybody. The tyre is glued by Super Glue onto the shell. Very tight! Also, you can use a rubber-glue to do so, but takes longer time to dry out.

To Tom:
Whatever gauge the nail is, it is always nail. We should know when making hardwood classical furnitures, nails are not allowed. People use only tenons to fasten the wood. Only soft wood low grade furnitures are using nails to save the cost.
For me, it is a principle that we should not disobey when making precious hardwood artifact.
Thank you for your efforts to avoid nailing cracks. And thank DSD's efforts to elimnate nailing cracks. :D
#16391
Those little tacks only become a problem when nailing into or close to the end-grain where the wood is more unacceptable to cracking... Simba is right about the hardwood vs softwood and about fine furniture... you see nails in construction, not in art/fine woodworking. Though I do sometimes love the look of decorative tacks, I try and keep them from getting too close to the end-grain of the wood.. and only use them on thicker shells.

Because of expansion/contraction the nails or tacks, unless glued in also, will eventually get loose and come out... this same expansion and contraction CAN make a small nail hole split, especailly when near end-grain. With djembes usually stored in a stable environment, it's not a real issue.. but keep the drum in a shed or garage, or back seat of a car, and the effects are more noticeable over time.

I've never seen a real need for a tire bottom, more aesthetic I think... but then I don't play sitting on concrete.
User avatar
By Tom
#16392
I've had no problems with cracks in the foot/leg of my Wula djembe, nor do i expect any.
And... I was very surprised re. the announcement on the DSD site about all kinds of repairs due to tire tread bottoms.
So were we. We’ve done repairs on many, many djembes, but have seen no association between stem cracks and nailed-on rubber. Maybe it’s only a problem in California (the fissure state). Also, having “repaired tons of cracks due to nails”, it suggests that they knew of the problem for all these years. I’m surprised that it wasn’t announced it sooner (by anyone at all).
Whatever gauge the nail is, it is always nail. We should know when making hardwood classical furnitures, nails are not allowed. People use only tenons to fasten the wood. Only soft wood low grade furnitures are using nails to save the cost.
Nailing two pieces of furniture together is not a sound method, but that’s about the structural integrity of furniture, and another subject altogether. We are discussing the attaching of rubber to wood.

Also, nails are allowed in hardwood furniture. If not, then you would not have an industry which sells high end (and very expensive) decorative and upholstery tacks to high end furniture makers. That’s where Wula and DSD get the decorative tacks which we put on the djembes. But where is the annoncement that decorative tacks split wood?

Check the link below. The second photo from the top is of an antique Victorian chair (“hardwood classical furniture”) which was reupholstered and sold for $1,800. Notice the decorative tacks that are nailed into the wood.

http://victorianantiquitiesanddesign.bl ... -make.html

If you just do not want to see nails in wood then I can understand, but if you are going to make the argument that there is an epidemic of djembes splitting due to mounting nails, then it should be backed up with sufficient evidence; or at least a sound argument. If not, then it is just a theory, and it risks spreading misinformation.

Again, we've dealt with thousands of drums built this way and have not experienced any problems. I see no reason to do it differently unless I see enough evidence of a problem, or unless someone specifically requests it. And if someone tells you that nails should not be put in wood, then they should never again put a decorative tack in a djembe. To do so would be to hold a double standard.
User avatar
By Djembe-nerd
#16395
I think this tack issue is hyped a little.

Tacks look beautiful, whats a djembe without some Bling ! Bling ! Mine have a lot of Bling ! Bling ! :D
Attachments
Lenke 13 inch dia.jpg
Lenke 13 inch dia.jpg (66.75 KiB) Viewed 1591 times
Iroko 13.7 inch dia.jpg
Iroko 13.7 inch dia.jpg (120.07 KiB) Viewed 1591 times
User avatar
By e2c
#16396
Tom's right about decorative tacks and upholstery... sometimes they're intended to be a very prominent part of the design/decoration, sometimes they're intended to more or less "fade into" the overall look of a piece of furniture - and sometimes they're concealed.

But they're still there, if a piece is upholstered.

Not only that... there are beautiful pieces of cabinetmaking that have drawer pulls and hooks and all kinds of things screwed right into the wood. Really beautiful wood, in many cases. And other kinds of metal fittings are used, too.

Check here for some 18th century US and British pieces: http://www.taylorbwilliams.com/Furniture/furniture.htm

As for tacks and other metal decoration on djembes, I'm not a big fan of it, but that's about personal taste. :)

Edited to add: no offense meant (especially to simba), but the idea of putting Super Glue on the foot of a djembe shell ... I guess it makes me feel like simba does about tacks!
User avatar
By Dugafola
#16405
Also I don't like the too simple(with no decorational function) rubber foot that DSD is using, so I made an experiment and my DIY is a total success!
function before fashion. 8)
Tom wrote:
I've had no problems with cracks in the foot/leg of my Wula djembe, nor do i expect any.
And... I was very surprised re. the announcement on the DSD site about all kinds of repairs due to tire tread bottoms.
So were we. We’ve done repairs on many, many djembes, but have seen no association between stem cracks and nailed-on rubber. Maybe it’s only a problem in California (the fissure state). Also, having “repaired tons of cracks due to nails”, it suggests that they knew of the problem for all these years. I’m surprised that it wasn’t announced it sooner (by anyone at all).
maybe that's why Drumskull chooses to do rubber bottoms the way they do.

also, it seems the Wula is the main exporter/importer of drum with rubber tire bottoms (at least to the US). the only other ones i've seen before you guys really started selling drums were in guinea or drums that were bought over there and then brought to the states.

tom, do you know who started the trend of the tire bottoms? or perhaps when it started?

i have a drum that has a DSD rubber bottom from when they first started doing them...maybe 5.5 years old now. it still looks good and is holding tight. i also have a tire tread bottom on one shell and i'll admit it's kinda fuct up. it's doing it's job though.

i think in order to state that nails in wood, djembes in particular, doesn't do any harm, you'd need to remove tire bottoms to actually see what, if any damage, has been incurred on the leg of the shell. but no one really wants to do that. :tsktsk:
User avatar
By Tom
#16409
Dugafola wrote:also, it seems the Wula is the main exporter/importer of drum with rubber tire bottoms (at least to the US). the only other ones i've seen before you guys really started selling drums were in guinea or drums that were bought over there and then brought to the states.
Actually, we are just a drop in the ocean. It never occurred to me that people might think that that the rubber tire bottom is mostly exclusive to Wula. That was my intention, initially, which leads to your next question.
Dugafola wrote:tom, do you know who started the trend of the tire bottoms? or perhaps when it started?
It started in early 2005, in Conakry, when I brought the idea for the rubber tire protector to a Guinean friend mine named Basiro. Basiro mounted timing belts on djembes in a little shack next to Wann’s shop in Kameliya (Wann is one of the main exporters of Guinea djembes). It took some trial and error before we figured out that the best type of tire to use is the back tire of a street bike. I was real happy with myself, thinking that not only had I found a good way to protect the wood of the stem bottoms, but that I had found a unique way to set the appearance of our djembes apart. Well, that was short lived, because within less than a year every single shop in Conakry had adopted the technique. Now, thousands of djembes are made this way each year; not only in Guinea, but now in other West African countries as well. I can’t speak for the west coast, but djembes with rubber tire protectors are all over the east coast. Interestingly enough, even Drumskull’s supplier, who is also one of the top three exporters of Guinea djembes, builds his (non-DSD) drums with the rubber tire. BTW, we have a photo of Basiro in action on file somewhere. I’ll try to find and post it.
Dugafola wrote:i have a drum that has a DSD rubber bottom from when they first started doing them...maybe 5.5 years old now. it still looks good and is holding tight. i also have a tire tread bottom on one shell and i'll admit it's kinda fuct up. it's doing it's job though.
Yeah, better the rubber than the wood. Personally I do like the look of the DSD’s rubber mounting, which is very clean, but I also like the fact that the tire protects not just the bottom, but the outside of the bottom as well. I think it can be important in the longevity to the stem-bottom wood. I just tried to post a photo which shows why, but I could not get the photo to post. If you want to see it then go to our Facebook page and click on Profile – Photos – Photos of Wula. Check out the first and second photos of M’bemba Bangoura and Kolipe Camara and you’ll see what I mean.
Dugafola wrote:i think in order to state that nails in wood, djembes in particular, doesn't do any harm, you'd need to remove tire bottoms to actually see what, if any damage, has been incurred on the leg of the shell. but no one really wants to do that.
Including me; but wood, being wood, often cracks (rubber or no rubber), and I’ve had to pull off rubber to get to the cracks and make the repairs. It’s not as difficult as it may seem, and I’d say it’s easier than if the rubber was glued on. Of course, that depends on what type of glue was used. I’ve also pulled off rubber completely and filled the nails holes, upon request, and after I finish you’d have to be about a foot away from the drum to be able to tell that there was even work done on it. Also, the nails are so thin and the holes so small that there is no structural damage to the wood. In fact, in our shop in Guinea, any time I think that the rubber was mounted less than perfectly I will have the mounter (Basiro) pull it off and do it again. That has happened enough times, but I haven't seen cracks which were caused by nails. Also, I’ve nailed in thousands of decorative tacks and experienced maybe had two or three incidents of cracks opening up; and they most likely would have opened up eventually anyway, due to natural fissures in the wood.

This is an interesting debate, which I’m sure will continue. I encourage everyone who has the chance to do so to visit the drum making shops in Guinea, including Wula’s, so that you can see for yourself. And in time the reality will surface.
By simba
#16410
some Khadi wood classical Ming Furniture, no nail, no hinge:

Image

Image

Image

Image

And in ancient hardwood furniture, the handles are not nailed or screwed on, but bolted on the wood. That means you must make a hole in the wood before you use metal fastenings. That's the only way to avoid cracks.
By simba
#16411
EvanP wrote: What type of tire is that?
It's the tyre of electrical bike. The electrical bike is overwhelming in China and motorcycle is dying out now. :giggle:

Image

Image

Image