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By the kid
#17204
[James]Hi, I have split this thread, because I want to discuss this and leave the poor djembe direct thread to it's own peace ;)[/james]

Now my post was edited out too

So e3c complains and a decent bit of banter gets edited out of history

This is over handed moderation in my opinion

It's Horse manure i tell you

I would mind the stupid fanta bottle been banned from the site do
User avatar
By Dugafola
#17207
the kid wrote: This is over handed moderation in my opinion


Last edited by Dugafola on Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By e2c
#17209
kid - I completely agree that the moderation and deletion of posts in this thread is VERY heavy-handed and was unnecessary. (Just like the bickering I complained about - I sure as hell wasn't asking anyone to delete or edit posts!!!)

bubudi, take it easy on your magical powers. OK? You've done stuff like this in the past - when other arguments between you and Duga have happened - but I think your deletion of posts in this thread is the last straw. (no pun intended.)

James: I would like to request that post deletion not be up to one person alone, but that it be run by you and rachel, too. (Excepting spam, of course.)

Just for the record: I asked that bubudi and Duga take their beefs off-list. That was all, nothing terrible, no curse words, no nastiness. But all any of you have now is my claiming that, not the actual posts, because they've been deleted, right along with Duga's and the kid's and at least one by bubudi himself.
the kid wrote:Now my post was edited out too

So e3c complains and a decent bit of banter gets edited out of history

This is over handed moderation in my opinion.
Last edited by e2c on Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By michi
#17211
I try and do my best to avoid ad-hominem attacks in my posts, no matter how much I think they might be justified. After two-and-a-half decades on the net, I've yet to see such a post lead to anything useful.

As to moderation policy, it's hard to decide whether it is better to delete the off-topic posts or to leave them in place for the rest of the world to trawl through. Once such posts are made, it's a lose-lose situation—either the moderator or the poster get victimized.

I believe the best approach is to frame posts such that no-one has to consider moderation in the first place…

Michi.
User avatar
By e2c
#17212
michi wrote:I try and do my best to avoid ad-hominem attacks in my posts, no matter how much I think they might be justified. After two-and-a-half decades on the net, I've yet to see such a post lead to anything useful.

As to moderation policy, it's hard to decide whether it is better to delete the off-topic posts or to leave them in place for the rest of the world to trawl through. Once such posts are made, it's a lose-lose situation—either the moderator or the poster get victimized.

I believe the best approach is to frame posts such that no-one has to consider moderation in the first place…

Michi.
Agreed... in this case, I think posts and moderation could have been a lot more, well... moderate.

But I think that expecting things never to get out of hand is a little unrealistic. (Not that you said that, michi - just that conflicts will arise, given that we're human.)

When it gets personal, I personally believe it's best to take it off-list.
#17258
Just to say, this issue is being taken very seriously...

I will upgrade the forum soon to keep track of all edits, so that in future it'll be possible to have a clear view of what has been going on after edits etc...

Anyway, more soon

James :)
User avatar
By e2c
#17263
Thanks, James.

fwiw, at one time I did a bit of moderating myself... and the mods on that forum usually discussed possible post edits or deletions with other mods before taking any action - spam deletion excepted. (It's not an easy job, and it's not one I would ever want to take on again...)

It was a far from perfect system, but I think other peoples' perspective can help a lot in making these kinds of decisions. (If/when - imo, such actions don't need to happen very often.)
User avatar
By freefeet
#17266
Hard job indeed, did it for a few months on a forum and resigned - that's my qualifications. :)

I do believe that a bit of dispute is healthy, and human, and can give a forum a little life occasionally. It's where the line is drawn that needs to be decided.

I think i read most (if not all) of the posts before they were deleted and while it was beginning to become a little heated i didn't think it warranted deletion at any measure - and it seems most people agree with this as well.

Surely in this case a moderator could have moderated and just sent a PM to each of the people that were having an issue and asked them to be a little calmer?

I haven't been here long and don't post much (but reading and learning loads - thank you all), but i really like the incredible level of civility that one encounters here.

Hugs!

x
User avatar
By Dugafola
#17268
during that entire exchange, the bubudi PM'd me and said something to the effect: "i hope you edit your post by the time i get home from work" or something like it.

that's why in one of my deleted posts in the djembedirect.com thread i mentioned that i'm not editing shit and he can do wtf ever he wants.

someone said it earlier, "heavy handed moderating."

I simply asked the site admin what he was basing his opinion on...which i think has since been edited, deleted or something.

in my mind, if i had no prior experience with XYZ company, why would i feel justified to post about them? based on some website pictures? c'mon that's fuct up. there are enough subscribers in the US who've most likely dealt with or own or have played a drum from djembe direct. give them a chance to speak up before fluffing your opinion.

people are coming here to ask questions and hoping to get qualified and informed answers. does the title of "site admin" mean you get a free pass from being held accountable with the content they post on the site? i think not. i felt that the site admin gave a shitty answer and i called him out on it. it's not the first time.

it doesn't matter if it's the site admin or someone else...it doesn't matter if it's one of my african teachers. i'm not infallible, i expect to be called out for information i post here if i'm speaking outside my of azimuth of knowledge.
User avatar
By freefeet
#17269
Dugafola wrote:people are coming here to ask questions and hoping to get qualified and informed answers. does the title of "site admin" mean you get a free pass from being held accountable with the content they post on the site? i think not. i felt that the site admin gave a shitty answer and i called him out on it. it's not the first time.

it doesn't matter if it's the site admin or someone else...it doesn't matter if it's one of my african teachers. i'm not infallible, i expect to be called out for information i post here if i'm speaking outside my of azimuth of knowledge.
:clap:
User avatar
By michi
#17270
Dugafola wrote:i expect to be called out for information i post here if i'm speaking outside my of azimuth of knowledge.
So do I, and it happens to me pretty regularly around here :)

Nothing wrong with disagreement. I do think though that there are various ways to express disagreement, some more appropriate than others. When I disagree with someone, I try to do it as politely as possible, and by disagreeing with the facts rather than the person.

Cheers,

Michi.
By bubudi
#17276
thanks folks!

i think i was being clear from the outset that i based my opinions of the company's stock on the photos and samples they provided on the site. dugafola is right that people who have actually seen the drums are more qualified to comment, but i do have years of experience with drums and can offer an opinion based on what i can see and hear on the website. i apologise if this offended anyone.

in this case, everyone except for dugafola expressed their opinions without feeling the need to attack mine. i think their opinions naturally hold more weight than mine because the people either owned a drum from the company (multiple drums in one case), or had seen them up and close without owning one. people reading these opinions can make their own independent decisions, and i have tried very hard to avoid attacking anyone's opinions, although i've exercised the right to my own.

if i wasn't tied down with dealing with all the other stuff around this issue, i probably would have withdrawn my statements about the company, in light of all the good rap it has received. i have no problem admitting when i'm wrong.

even had there not been other positive reports of the company, if dugafola had a problem with how i expressed an opinion, i think he should have sent me a private message, and had he done so, i would likely have edited my post.

it is fine to disagree with others and offer some healthy critique of the points they make. it needs to be done with tact, however. i am careful not to force my opinions on anyone else, including not to attack them for expressing theirs, or overly criticizing the points they make. people can easily feel offended or humiliated if they are publically ridiculed for their opinion.

there is a line between offering an opinion that disagrees with someone else's and attacking it because you don't think it's as informed as it should be.

to attack any member's right to an opinion goes against the very spirit of this forum. i believe that is tantamount to the victimisation that one member said she received on another board, because she didn't read music or play jazz professionally. therefore some people attacked her for expressing her opinions about jazz music, when clearly she has a working and seasoned pair of ears and other relevant knowledge and experience to form valid opinions that she had a right to express. i would hate to see this forum deteriorate to the negativity displayed on the other board (which will remain unmentioned).

it's important to respect people on a forum where people's opinions are likely to be at odds with each other from time to time. in my experience, heated situations are always the result of either a misunderstanding or a lack of respect.

i do not wish to go too much more into dugafola's comments because the posts are now lost forever. i tried to treat the situation behind the scenes by engaging him by private message, but dugafola responded with a disrespectful reply that ended with an emoticon with a tongue sticking out. rather than react to this antagonism i simply repeated my request for him to edit the comments.

many hours later i checked on the thread and found that dugafola had written 'you can edit my posts'. had he not have written that, i would have referred it to the team to deal with. but with what seemed like his clear consent at the time, i went ahead and edited out the offending comments.

i tried to deal with the 2 objections by other members at the time by private message, but the problem is that once an objection is made in the thread, others will see it and respond. that is why it's better to deal with disputes directly with the team, and keep it 'off-list', so that (1) the thread doesn't become about the dispute instead of about the topic in the heading, and (2) the forum doesn't enter into negativity. if the dispute is handled early on by the team off-list, there is much more likely to be a win-win-win situation where everyone is satisfied of the outcome. we're not in the practice of avoiding controversy and healthy debate on djembefola.com. we simply want to deal with things effectively and to everyone's satisfaction, wherever that's possible.

when a person finds a post made on the forum objectionable, the rules and guidelines direct him/her to use the 'report post' button. this will alert the post to the moderators and allow him/her to make a comment (viewable only by the moderators) as to why the post is disagreeable. this is the preferred way to deal with spam, victimisation or any other perceived breach of the rules.

i also need to say that moderation is tough, and no matter how careful a moderator is, if they get involved with anything they easily find themselves in the firing line as people become disgruntled with the moderator's comments/actions without necessarily having all the background information. moderation is a very time consuming job, is not rewarded in any way, and involves a lot of behind-the-scenes work, so the nature of the beast is that other members may not always be fully aware of everything that goes on, but that is sometimes the way things should be, for ethical reasons. we would rather not have to go into details out of respect to the members involved, regardless of whether a member has themselves done wrong.

additionally, if a moderator had to explain every action taken, they would need to quit their job and social life to allow them time to moderate, and perhaps only a retiree could be in the position to do so. even so, i don't think that's a healthy situation for them! this was a relatively small matter but there was a very large concern that was very real to the people involved, which i can fully appreciate. it was a matter of perception though, and without having all the information at hand, misreading the situation is a likely outcome. that's why off-list dialogue with the team can make all the difference, otherwise relatively small situations can blow to big proportions.

in certain cases, a situation will be able to be dealt with quickly and may only require one moderator, while other cases will require discussion and action by the team. this situation was deceptive in that i took dugafola's 'you can edit my posts' to be his consent, and i think that could easily have happened to any moderator. as i said, most situations arise from misunderstandings. a proper off-list dialogue, possibly with another moderator, would have probably avoided this whole situation. as such, we are discussing steps to avoid even these kinds of situations.

more to come after the team have had the chance to discuss...
#17279
bubudi wrote:i have tried very hard to avoid attacking anyone's opinions, although i've exercised the right to my own.

my opinion is that you have too many opinions.
bubudi wrote: i believe that is tantamount to the victimisation that one member said she received on another board, because she didn't read music or play jazz professionally. therefore some people attacked her for expressing her opinions about jazz music, when clearly she has a working and seasoned pair of ears and other relevant knowledge and experience to form valid opinions that she had a right to express.


i could jump all over this, but i'll spare everyone.
bubudi wrote:
i do not wish to go too much more into dugafola's comments because the posts are now lost forever.


how convenient. you edited your post. it didn't read like it currently does.
bubudi wrote: i tried to treat the situation behind the scenes by engaging him by private message, but dugafola responded with a disrespectful reply that ended with an emoticon with a tongue sticking out.


OMG. that's terrible!! an emoticon with a tongue sticking out!!! if you don't like it, why don't you conveniently delete it from the forum....consult with the team and let me know!!! god forbid someone would actually use it!!

bubudi wrote: when a person finds a post made on the forum objectionable, the rules and guidelines direct him/her to use the 'report post' button. this will alert the post to the moderators and allow him/her to make a comment (viewable only by the moderators) as to why the post is disagreeable. this is the preferred way to deal with spam, victimisation or any other perceived breach of the rules.

i also need to say that moderation is tough, and no matter how careful a moderator is, if they get involved with anything they easily find themselves in the firing line as people become disgruntled with the moderator's comments/actions without necessarily having all the background information. moderation is a very time consuming job, is not rewarded in any way, and involves a lot of behind-the-scenes work, so the nature of the beast is that other members may not always be fully aware of everything that goes on, but that is sometimes the way things should be, for ethical reasons. we would rather not have to go into details out of respect to the members involved, regardless of whether a member has themselves done wrong.

additionally, if a moderator had to explain every action taken, they would need to quit their job and social life to allow them time to moderate, and perhaps only a retiree could be in the position to do so. even so, i don't think that's a healthy situation for them! this was a relatively small matter but there was a very large concern that was very real to the people involved, which i can fully appreciate. it was a matter of perception though, and without having all the information at hand, misreading the situation is a likely outcome. that's why off-list dialogue with the team can make all the difference, otherwise relatively small situations can blow to big proportions.

in certain cases, a situation will be able to be dealt with quickly and may only require one moderator, while other cases will require discussion and action by the team. this situation was deceptive in that i took dugafola's 'you can edit my posts' to be his consent, and i think that could easily have happened to any moderator. as i said, most situations arise from misunderstandings. a proper off-list dialogue, possibly with another moderator, would have probably avoided this whole situation. as such, we are discussing steps to avoid even these kinds of situations.

more to come after the team have had the chance to discuss...
thanks for the lecture. can you please go back to telling us about teachers you've never met or studied with and about places and culture in africa that you've never visited?

this could have been avoided if I could "block" Bubdi...but seeing as he's a mod or admin i cannot. what is the point of having the friends/foes? team?

sorry folks...someone went trolling and i went hook line and sinker. i'm normally not this confrontational, but i'm having fun with this one.
User avatar
By e2c
#17281
bubudi wrote
thanks folks!
??? "Thanks"? What for?

I can't speak for anyone else, but my comments about personal attacks were directed at both you and Duga.
bubudi wrote:
i believe that is tantamount to the victimisation that one member said she received on another board, because she didn't read music or play jazz professionally. therefore some people attacked her for expressing her opinions about jazz music, when clearly she has a working and seasoned pair of ears and other relevant knowledge and experience to form valid opinions that she had a right to express.
Look, b- leave me out of it!!! I have nothing to do with the conflicts between you and Duga, and I really do NOT appreciate your dragging me into this in any way, shape or form. (Let alone citing me secondhand *and* getting some of the details wrong on top of everything else!)

You are - imo - way out of line here.

- Do I believe you have been heavy-handed as a mod? Yes, no question.

- Do you have a right to delete posts that are displeasing to you personally?. imo, NO WAY.

... If you and Duga are gonna duke it out, please take it off-list. There is no need for lengthy self-justifying posts by either of you.

Nobody's interested in this stuff.

I think we care about how the board is - or is not - being moderated.

I personally believe that it would be far better to have other mods (James, Rachel) look at supposedly offensive posts before anyone deletes them. There's often wisdom in numbers - and in cooler heads. They're "the team." In the case of the Djembedirect thread (and in others that come to mind), post deletions were done by a mod - bubudi - acting alone.

That's never a good idea.

And to keep up a personal feud on this - or any other - thread? NO.

OK; I've said my piece.

It's in James' hands now. (I'd advocate bubudi's taking a break from modding - something frequently done on other forums - and having someone who's removed from this conflict stepping in, even if only temporarily.)