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By the kid
#38407
If anyone wants me to delete this post i will, pm me or state it here, as a political discussion on this subject might divide people and lead to less people posting. That'd be negative figures i guess, but ya get my meaning, I don't want to offend some people emotionally involved in the US Politics. I'm objectively viewing it from another continent but would like to hear peoples opinions on it really. I know jack shit on the subject but it is fascinating really the tooing and froing.

The crying over trump is colossal. I'd say he's been the center of the news for the last 3 years. I'm like get over it already, but no, there is a constant stream through the media. It is like a media take over really. A lot of people hate Trump and want him gone.

Why are such powerful organizations all against this man when what went before seemed worse and the alternative as in Clinton is extremely shady. I don't mind him as he is independent from the established power system in the US. But he probably got a talking to from Kissinger or someone and told how to play ball. Toe the line or they're really destroy him. He can pout all he wants as long as he doesn't renege on certain arms deals or whatever. Keep cozy with Israel and the Saudi's and all will be well. All the buzz in the media is much ado about nothing and designed to keep us from looking at the real issues in the world.

It could be the first time the military style propaganda is used to destabilize a leader in the US. I don't see him turning out like Gadafi though as Trump likes his luxury and as i said probably done a deal with his masters to play ball.

If the whole Russian collusion conspiracy was part of a cover up of the Seth Rich murder then that'd be crazy. The Nsa has all the tricks to pin something on the Russians including hacking etc. For all there expertisehow could someone actually hack an election. The DNC 'hack' looks like an inside job as in someone like Seth Rich whistle-blowed the info to wiki weeks.

It is some game of charades anyways or quagmire or whatever. Does anybody have a good theory on what they think is the real story. Please post a synopsis here. Or post a delete this tripe quick post lol. There must be some out there with some explanation from their point of view or who wants to set me straight on the whole subject.
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By djembefeeling
#38408
I think it's better to keep this forum about djembe music and related topics and to delete this thread. That being said I will give my five cents to the topic. For me there is way too much conspiracy theory in your account of recent events. Something I can observe in the political discussion here in Germany, too. Many people don't trust the newspapers and official sources anymore. That opens up a plethora of doubts and awry theories.

Trump is Trump and resistant to any advice. He wouldn't really listen to Kissinger or anybody else. He wants to make America "great again" and by that he means economically and militarilly dominating the rest of the world, while white people and culture dominate inside the USA, in short: the USA as it used to be in the 1950s. He even said as a candidate he wants to boost the military budget.

The Russian interference in the election in not a theory, it's a fact. And it's not a cover up for something else. The DNC was hacked by the Russians. If there was collusion between the Russians and the Trump team has to be seen. But about the intereference watch the new frontline doumentation in two parts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pWALA6vgoY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CseelcF16GA

Also I recommend to watch the PBS newshour on a daily basis. It's journalism at it's best if you want to be informed about US politics.
By the kid
#38409
Yea I'll check out those links.

But i would find it hard to watch those in fairness.

It's all very well believing the sincere voice of American politicians and businessmen and women, but look at the militarization of the net and there military cyber capabilities and ask yourself would certain powerful individuals or groups decide to use these tools to create an outcome that they want or to try change a narrative.

If there is some proof in there please direct me to it. You say Russia hacking the DNC is a fact. Please point me to that proof. Does credible proof exist

It's possible but the info released existed and should have been known to the public to know the truth about the DNC. Clinton using a secret server in LIbya is also a fact and totally against the law for a US representative abroad especially at that level. To try to conceal and actually destroy large chunks of it, is extreme dubious. The Donna Brazile book looks pretty interesting too on these subjects. Uranium 1 deal is also goon expose some of the shady dealings of the Clintons.

When you look at it there is a bunch of crooks on both sides ie the Republicans and the Democrats. Then they all appear as nice as pie on tv giving there sermons. Even George Bush was leaking innuendo on Trump. Is Trumpert so bad in comparison! Is he a dangerous fool or does he actually know what he is doing? I wonder. I'd say he mainly cares about his image/ego and his own self interest as well as trying to be successful as leader of the US.

But back to the Russian interference thing, check the vault 7 and 8 in wikileaks and look at all the hacking tools developed by the CIA and the NSA and consider what these organizations have the power to do today esp the HIVE tool. Anybody says this group or that group hacked someone else is totally voided today by the fact that there are tools developed to mask a hack and pin it on someone else. It is extremely hard to prove something due to this capability now that they have developed. You actually need real proof rather than some Cyber Security companies opinion. Further fall out from there programs is things like the wannacry virus created from the Eternal Blue windows exploit developed by the NSA or Stuxnet designed to compromise Nuclear power plants. These malwares are very dangerous. The NSA is like 30'000 Snowdon's trying to find exploits into your digital equipment and a whole lot more. There are probably 100'000 in the States working on Cyber Security for the government and Military combined.

All our computers could be crippled by these malwares been released on the public. It is like germ warfare/ ie dangerous/ but these can spread globally much quicker and have many knock on effects.

The WMD in Iraq intel was proof of how far some will go to get what they want. That was propagated by many high ranking officials and the media in the US and UK, making it all the way to the UN with Colin Powell. These people don't need proof but are looking for an excuse to proceed with there objectives/orders. Most media organizations are simply spoon fed the info from top officials. If they question something they loose the privilege to that source and someone else gets the job. Check John Pilgers films on embedded journalism and modern journalism in general.

People have to wake up to the fact that for years the US has been declaring the Cyber Space as another war zone for them to dominate. For someone to hack them suggests lack luster defenses but i don't think that is the case.


I wonder about it really. It is puzzling and ok for someone to say just believe the official narrative propagated by the media but it is hard for me to do that. I'd instead go with 'i don't know so i'm not gonna believe either side fully until more credible evidence comes out. But obviously i'm skeptical about the official story.
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By djembefeeling
#38410
You raised so many topics and questions, it is hard to answer them all and as lengthy as they deserve. But I think, in general you confuse some things here that need to be straightened up.

Certainly, the USA of today has the best cyber capabilities of the world. All the big players and most important internet companies are American and the intelligence agencies have backdoors built in their software. The Russians are far behind that. But that doesn't mean, they cannot do anything. Like with spacecraft, a less sophisticated technique can still lead to successes. With the antivirus software kapersky they were able to get secret codes of the NSA. No big company with many people working in is completely secure. That is even true for the NSA.

And the DNC is a totally different thing. They were pretty dumb and unprepared in the security department. please watch the frontline deocumentation, especially the second part. they also made public all the interviews they did with many people involved and experts there. Especially the interview with Julia Ioffe is revealing. You can learn a lot about how systems of countries and bureaucracies really work. We have a much idealized idea of it from the movies.

The kind of proof you ask for is not to be found for the usual citizen. We need good journalism for that, the kind of journalism that is hard to find these days due to the shrinking resources for newspapers. The NYT, WP, the Times, Die ZEIT, newspapers like that still have this kind of journalism, and all those that laletly worked on the paradise papers. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. The NYT did let itself instrumentalize by the Bush Administration for the desinformation campaign the for illigitimate war on Iraq (to say it bluntly, Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Wolfowitz should stand for trial as war criminals) and the NYT had no real rehabilitation process to this day. But lots of newspapers had different accounts and put the account of the Bush administration into doubt.

Proof of Russian interference is everywhere if you start looking for it. See what the social media like facebook and twitter had to report before the congressional committee after first talking the problem small. I do read and discuss in the German flagship of journalism Die ZEIT everyday and can experience the same tactics Julia Ioffe and others talk about, today even British Prime Minister Theresa May talked about it. Pro-Russian trolls and bots interfere in the discussions heavily whenever topics relate Russia, Syria, or Trump - even energy related topics - and heavily fuel the discussion with controversial statements. Its a real nuisance. You cannot discuss in public forums in a moderate democratic way anymore, the discussion is so tainted that many of the usual readers and participants drop out. Interestingly, supporters of the new right party AfD here work hand in hand with these Russian forces.

For me it is shocking. Democracy is on the line here. The doubts you express are exactly those always raised by those people. They continually raise doubts about everthing and want to confuse everything until you don't know what is right and wrong anymore. So I often discuss with people maintaining that the Russian and the US side are equally right or wrong. But there is an important difference between democracies and athoritarian regimes. In Russia, free press is gone. In the USA, even under Trump, it still works.

The problem is that doubts can be raised so easily because the Russians exploit the very success of the press, namely the uncovering of governmental and big company conspiracies and wrong doings. So we were feed with such stories, which are often amplified by Hollywood. Now we are educated to not believe everything without giving it a second thought. The Russians amplify that even more and turn it against the fundamentals of our societies. That's vicious. They thrive because we have some education on politics and stuff, but usually rather superficial. We are not used to scrutinize sources if we didn't study humanities or journalism. I studied philosophy, history and political science, so a big part of that time was to learn to tell good and relevant sources from tainted or irrelevant. Even then it's not always easy to dig all these stories. But I can tell you that this frontline documentation and the Julia Ioffe reasoning is the real deal. Watch the PBS newshour regularly and you learn about the high standards of good journalism in the long run. It takes years. But it's worth it. Democracy is on the line worldwide.