Sunu on a 175 year old djembe

[e2c]

I think Afoba makes many valid points, including the one about exoticism.

If that makes me sound overly skeptical, well then...

[the kid]

Of course Daniel makes valid points.

Me, i don't care what age the drum is. It's like a country mile. I've walked millions of them but haven't been able to say exactly how long one is. It usually takes around 20 mintues to complete


I think people look for accuracy and precission where there is none. People want to know the definite truth but the real definite truth is impossible to grasp as it happened in the past and wasn't recorded. To an African this drum is really old. To our european scientists it has to be an exact figure. One answer must be wrong scientifically and all who believe that answer are also wrong.

Whats wrong with taking something with a pinch of salt?

[the kid]

The exotic aspect of West African culture wore off a long time ago

Just wondering Brian, have you been to west Africa?

It's pretty exotic. Fresh coconuts, pinnapple and all that.

[Michel]

Ever asked a driver in Africa how long it will take to come somewhere? Then look again at the answers of Abdoul Doumbia...... Kid, you hit the nail on the head.

[rachelnguyen]

Just wondering Brian, have you been to west Africa?

It's pretty exotic. Fresh coconuts, pinnapple and all that.

Ha ha!

[bkidd]

the kid wrote:
I think people look for accuracy and precission where there is none. People want to know the definite truth but the real definite truth is impossible to grasp as it happened in the past and wasn't recorded. To an African this drum is really old. To our european scientists it has to be an exact figure. One answer must be wrong scientifically and all who believe that answer are also wrong.

Whats wrong with taking something with a pinch of salt?

The problem is actually with Abdoul's friend who was asking questions on the video. He was the one who was trying to put a number on the age of the drum. I actually don't really care how old the drum is either, but my bs detector goes off when people say things that seem implausible -- it's a reflex from many years of scientific training . The same would be true if you told me that you walked from Galway to Dublin in half a day while carrying your djembe the whole way.

I wouldn't have given the comment a second thought if the video title said Abdoul plays Sunu on old drum. The title and interview seem like an advertising ploy to get more views.

the kid wrote:
Just wondering Brian, have you been to west Africa?

Unfortunately no. I'm hoping to go next year.

It's pretty exotic. Fresh coconuts, pinnapple and all that.

Hawaii has those too. My comment was directed at not adopting, believing, or buying into something just because it's exotic. When I eventually go to West Africa, it's not because I have some romantic notion of what it will be like or am attracted by the foreign nature of the place. Instead, I'd like to experience parts of the culture first hand.

Best,
-Brian

[Onetreedrums]

This old jenbe has sparked quite a bit of conversation. I love hearing Abdoul play a low tuned jenbe, especially since his jenbes that I build for him make my hands blister just by touching them. I have witnessed this jenbe up close on many occasions and recently played it a bit.

It was one of two old jenbe shells in his storage that were certainly "antique-grade." Abdoul offered both to me to purchase and I bought the 13" dugura one (photo attached) and had Bekaye Kouyate build it up several years ago - sounds amazing, low but responsive - Abdoul prefers to play it any time we are playing drums at my house. This larger one (which seems older than the one I bought) in Tim's video (he built it up) is huge and from the surface it appeared to be dugara, but was extremely light weight which led me to consider it being black cassia. I was pretty tempted by this larger one, but I had just received my big jina jenbe from Jeremy and they were super similar. My jina jenbe is 14.5" in diameter and this old one is more like 16+", but the shape is pretty similar and the wall thickness is thinner than contemporary jenbes (same thickness as my jina, though). I can say that these two jenbes were easily the oldest ones I have ever seen, even appeared older than some of the old ones I saw during my time in Mali. The one I bought was in better condition (no cracks, but has more wear at the foot). Both had small nail marks, that didn't go all the way through, where the bottom ring resides. I have seen some other Mali jenbes from the 80's and 90's that used nails to hold the bottom ring in place (prevent it from moving around while being skinned) and speculate this is the case for these jenbes unless that was also a practice used for keeping rope or skin rings from moving around.

I agree that it is unrealistic to get an exact age of these jenbes but I am willing to guess they are more 50-60 years old and I wouldn't be surprised if they were older. I have asked Abdoul how old they were years ago and he said they were his teacher's teacher's drums. He didn't give an estimate in years other than saying they were older than he is.

[Daniel Preissler]

Hello again everybody.
Thanks to Brian's and Jürgen's reactions I don't need to answer all the thoughts that have shown up after my last post, some being a bit far from the sence and intention of my remarks!
Sorry Kid, I think you got my mail a bit "from the wrong side". Many of your points were good, but there's no contradiction to what I said.
Brian said it very well:

The problem is actually with Abdoul's friend who was asking questions on the video. He was the one who was trying to put a number on the age of the drum. I actually don't really care how old the drum is either, but my bs detector goes off when people say things that seem implausible

And then, Kid, Michel and Rachel, it's me who says to be careful with stories everytime on this site. Of course, stories can be nice, but (Michel) we have had this very often that people in this forum believed stories completely. I know best that communication follows other rules in Guinea and Mali than in Europe/the US... My point was that many times poeple in this forum didn't get that. Don't forget how this thread started, or even better, please have a look at it again after all the thought we have changed and expressed now: The title of this thread is Sunu on a 175 year old djembe so two whites (the one who made the "interview" in the video and James who choosed this title) constructed this declaration or how you wanna call it; they made it from the will of an nice old djembe playing guy wanting to please his friend's need for information/infotainment. Now that I some people say, it's probably not true, you say: There is nothing that's true of what Africans say. I know very well that this is not your point, but this is what Michel and Kid were saying more or less.
We can differnciate (or at least some people can) between 1) truth (at least some kind of truth), 2) stories that are not true, but explain true feelings or relations of things, people, frameworks, what ever and 3) stories that are more or less rubbish.
Then there is 3a: silly stories told by people who want to tell stories to make advert or what ever. A really pure occurence of 3 a is quite rare.
3b occures much more often: Africans (who might know a lot of interesting stuff) feeling forced by whites to come out with some very special and new information right NOW!!!! This is what we have here and this is what leads to most most most statements of Mamady's and (nfa, ifo) even Famoudou's that I'm used to criticize.

I hope I made my point clear in a comprehensive and more or less diplomatic way (I know that my english happens to limit my politeness as well as my precision from time to time - beg your pardon!).

Have a nice evening,
Daniel

[the kid]

I agree that it is unrealistic to get an exact age of these jenbes but I am willing to guess they are more 50-60 years old and I wouldn't be surprised if they were older. I have asked Abdoul how old they were years ago and he said they were his teacher's teacher's drums. He didn't give an estimate in years other than saying they were older than he is.

Thanks onetree for the real story and other info about those djembes

[Daniel Preissler]

true, thanx, Onetree, fo your comment!
and I forgot one question, too: why do you call those djembes (the very big ones from Bamako, right?) jina (dyina) djembes? I've heard a friend of mine using this name, too. So I'm wondering if they are (were) played for dyina fêtes only or if it's just the name which has been given to sell them.
Greetings, Daniel

[e2c]

Just a thought: "teacher's teacher" sounds a lot like "my father's father" - in other words, my grandfather or a man of my grandfather's generation.

My guess is that a lot of clues that W. Africans would get (about explanations, or how explanations are given) go right past most anyone who is an outsider and/or comes from a culture that's very different. (Happens all the time when people are studying in another country and using a 2nd or 3d language rather than their native language.)

*

Daniel - I think Nate (onetree) is talking about the djembes that Jeremy Chevrier sells, both in Mali and through his website.

http://www.rootsyrecords.com/HtmlFiles/JinaDjembes.htm

[James]

The problem is actually with Abdoul's friend who was asking questions on the video. He was the one who was trying to put a number on the age of the drum.

I'm not sure that we can make any assumptions. Who knows what Abdoul had told him before the moment, they were on camera. He may just have wanted to get hear what he had already been told, on camera (or not). Who knows, except Tim We should get him in here

When I posted the video, I doubted the djembe was 175 years old, but based on my knowledge (and anyone else here too I believe), what can you do, but take Abdoul at his word?

He certainly wants to live in a world where the drum is 175 years old, and I don't see what's wrong with anyone else living in that world too. There were djembe's 175 years ago right?

[Daniel Preissler]

I'm not sure that we can make any assumptions. Who knows what Abdoul had told him before the moment, they were on camera. He may just have wanted to get hear what he had already been told, on camera (or not). Who knows, except Tim We should get him in here

Hi James, that's absolutely right, but he still gave Abdoul the number he wanted to hear in that situation which makes it a declaration without any value (accept the one that Abdoul wants him to belive that this drum is much older than the others - how was it again: Abdoul had sold it to Tim before ). People in West Africa love to say yes, if you ask, how old could this be, 50 years? In Guinea they couls even add: "maximum, ouais" which doesn't necessarily mean "less" or "up to", but very often "about" or even "at least". To find out these things we need a good feeling for language and situations, a critical point of view (critical doesn't mean to think everyone is lying ) and probably some experience.

When I posted the video, I doubted the djembe was 175 years old, but based on my knowledge (and anyone else here too I believe), what can you do, but take Abdoul at his word?

Seriously, James: (You could have taken a different title.) You can always have a closer look at the situation and listen carefully (who says what and why?) So you might come (maybe) to the same conclusion as some of us others: that some djembes can most probably get that old, but that this djembe definitely is not that old. Because it's an obvious construction. There's still the information left, that this djembe is very old, and that's something interesting, isn't it (and there's no reason for me not to believe it, you see)? If you should ever find yourself in a comparable situation (or one of your friends), you absolutely want to hear something about time (or numbers), look for something more concrete than just "200" years. The abstract thinking aspect is stronger in western (and maybe asiatic??) countries. You can ask like: This djembé was it already there when the first president died/ the French went home/the French came here...

by the way: 200 years back means 1812. As you know, Napoleon was all over Europe, Quebec was already britisch and the US indipendent, AND: there were no French in Guinea and today's Mali. Mungo Park discovered that the Dyeliba ("Niger river") flows eastwards in 1796 (so 216 years ago). At that time there was not even a town in the region of today's Bamako and I think there were no Maninka around a that time (I consider Doumbia as a maninka name) and Segu hasn't even been taken by the Tuculor army.
Let's say 175 and we arrive in 1837, 10 years after the first French had arrived at the Niger in the Kouroussa region (Hamana). Sorry for making fun a bit of the concrete number affair. I just want to show that this doesn't help. Abdoul wouldn't have said: "My family took this djembe with them when they arrived in Bamako from the southeast a hundred years ago", if it's not true. Or, at least this would be much harder for him. But he can say "yes, 200", because this is abstract. It's the difference between lying (it would be a lie for him, I'm sure) and giving a friend the "information" he absolutely wants to hear (as we have it in the video).

Have a nice time,
Daniel

[Daniel Preissler]

Daniel - I think Nate (onetree) is talking about the djembes that Jeremy Chevrier sells, both in Mali and through his website.
http://www.rootsyrecords.com/HtmlFiles/JinaDjembes.htm

Thank you, e2c! So it's just the marketing aspect (I'm not that surprised, but it's important to know).

[djembeweaver]

Scenario 1: Student's need for specific information leads to Abdoul giving them what he thinks they want.

Scenario 2: Student reminds Abdoul of something he said in a previous conversation. Abdoul has been telling this story for more years than he can remember and the figure '175' has come to represent an indeterminantly long time for him.

Let's avoid exoticism and belief and stick to the facts: From what we see in the video, how can we be certain of one explanation over the other?