Old master confused

[Michel]

See Aruna Sidibe on sangban getting confused after 0:28 in this great video. But getting in again fast. Exactly these kind of solophrases can make you mad sometimes....

[michi]

Exactly these kind of solophrases can make you mad sometimes....

Good to see that even the masters are human

Some very nice solo phrases there too!

Cheers,

Michi.

[Afoba]

hey Michel,
it's the other way around: The dundun player thinks that the djembé player plays some rubbish to impress the white guy and stops - he doesn't recognize it as something good. He tells him once not to do so, and stops little later (don't know, if he wants to stop or can't go on).
When he joins in again, he changes the structure (the famous "one") - the djembé player doesn't even take a look at him, because music doesn't count for him in this situation.
watch the video again. you are right: "these kind of solophrases can make you mad sometimes.... " - obviously! d;-)
Greetings, d

[Afoba]

sorry, forgot to change the title d;-)

[Dugafola]

I agree with Afoba.

[Michel]

How about that! I was so glad that even the old masters get confused sometimes. But it's even worse: he confused me. You are right..... And dugafola agrees! anyone else?

[michi]

Looking at this again, I agree that soloist was off and the konkoni player could no longer make sense of what the soloist was doing.

On the other hand, the konkoni player should keep going and ignore the soloist, in effect helping the soloist find his place again.

From the movie Djembefola, where Mamady plays during a rehearsal with the ballet:

I never worry about my solos with them. They never miss a beat, they're strong, and joyful! That's the difference between Guinean and European percussionists. I can wander in my solos with them.

Even the best soloist will occasionally stray from the familiar path into unknown territory, realize along the way that this didn't work out so well, and rely on the accompaniment players to help him find his way back. Conversely, a soloist who continuously runs rough-shod over the ensemble makes noise, not music. There is a responsibility on both sides to play their respective parts well…

Cheers,

Michi.

[Michel]

'Even the best soloist will occasionally stray from the familiar path into unknown territory, realize along the way that this didn't work out so well, and rely on the accompaniment players to help him find his way back. Conversely, a soloist who continuously runs rough-shod over the ensemble makes noise, not music. There is a responsibility on both sides to play their respective parts well…'

I think not 'even' the best soloist.... I hope every soloist is occasionally straying from the familiar path into unknown territory! When they don't, they only play straight and I will hardly be surprised by them. That's what West African drumming makes exciting for me, sometimes listening to phrases over and over because I really don't get what the soloplayer is doing the first time. And in this movie I thought the konkoni player was having a same experience as I sometimes have: Huh!? WTF?? Oh.... Now I understand/feel it! And going on making beautifull music. For the sake of it: I agree with Michi....

[Michel]

A challenging question! I watched the movie over and over again. I can't see why the konkoniplayer had to stop because of the 'rubbish....' Lots of times in djembe you hear the same kind of 'rubbish' (very off-beat phrases) where the accompanist does not stop to play the accompaniement, but makes the soloist finish his solo and give him the chance to come back to the rhythm. And create something beautifull at the same time, something unexpected, that may sound a little bit different, but after listening again and again appears to be a great phrase.

Maybe related with this: I learned some phrases on Madan, from Sega Sidibe and from Sidiki Camara. They where the same, the only difference was that Sega started them on the 'one' and Sidiki on the 'two'.... Asking why that could happen was the answer: you can start on any point in the rhythm, depending on where the dancer starts. So why did the konkoniplayer adjust the 'one' in this movie?

Michel

[Dugafola]

A challenging question! I watched the movie over and over again. I can't see why the konkoniplayer had to stop because of the 'rubbish....' Lots of times in djembe you hear the same kind of 'rubbish' (very off-beat phrases) where the accompanist does not stop to play the accompaniement, but makes the soloist finish his solo and give him the chance to come back to the rhythm. And create something beautifull at the same time, something unexpected, that may sound a little bit different, but after listening again and again appears to be a great phrase.

i think these are 2 different things...there's "rubbish" and then there's offtime soloing. offtime soloing can be "in the pocket" just as if someone was soloing on the beat. for example, Fadouba and Bolokada.

i do agree that soloists should try to push their solos into unfamiliar territory, but i do think there is rhyme and reason as to how to do it. IMO, it's a fine line.

another way to look at this video: aruna is normally the djembefola and brulye the dununfola(at least on the old masters cd) maybe it's this dynamic that cause him to stop playing. maybe Aruna is the "gran."

like i mentioned before, i think the dununfola stopped because he didn't like what he was hearing. that's nothing new, i know tons of dunun players and djembe players, both african and non, who have, on occasion, either stopped playing all together or refuse to play with someone because of how they play...not because they were bad, but more because of stylistic preference.

[Michel]

I think this is very interesting. Thanks for your view, Dugafola. I agree, seen the same thing sometimes. I am not in the position to judge what is going to be a great solo or is rubbish, offcourse Aruna is always right, because of his age... In Africa, that is. I will try to start listening to Fadouba and Bolokada. I am a little bit more into Mali, I'm afraid. And there you'll see a lot of 'rubbish' what's going to be a great solo.....

By the way I don't see any moustache on your djembe.

[Afoba]

...phrases on Madan, from Sega Sidibe and from Sidiki Camara. They where the same, the only difference was that Sega started them on the 'one' and Sidiki on the 'two'.... Asking why that could happen was the answer: you can start on any point in the rhythm, depending on where the dancer starts. So why did the konkoniplayer adjust the 'one' in this movie?
Michel

the dancer would not do exactly the same thing from the "one" or/and from the "two" (but he could start sooner or later). I would say the two mentioned drummers have a different style - or maybe the two kinds are possible as you said.
BUT: what kind of solo was it? a long one, a short one, something more or less complex? was it for dance steps or did the second of them (the one you asked) just give you an aswer he thought it would please you?
The solo we saw in the video here has nothing to do with dance, but with impressing a white guest and/or friend! Don't forget that!
You can still argue if the dundun player should have gone on or not (me too, I would have said something rather than to stop), but obviously he doesn't like wath the djembé player does, tells him once, stops the next time and goes on the way he feel it correct. A djembé player who is sure of what he does, where he wants to get and so on, would have turned around now at least to ask the dundun player (by words or look), what he's doing or who of the two had made a mistake. But here: no reaction at all - because (as I said before), the music is not counting at this very moment.
You don't agree to that?

Greetings, Daniel

[Djembe-nerd]

the music is not counting at this very moment.

I am unable to understand the above sentence, what does that exactly mean ?

Is the soloist just teaching phrases, while not trying to be in the groove of the rhythym.

[Michel]

I think with the sentence that the music is not counting is meant that there is a sort of competition between the soloist and the konkoniplayer. The soloist is maybe trying to impress the white accompagniment player (or just trying to place the phrase right in the rhythm?) As Dugafola said, Aruna Sidibe, the old man with the konkoni, is normally the soloist, and Bruliye Doumbia the dununfola.
Afoba, I didn't really pay to much attention to the first part of the video. It's now clear to me that Bruliye is 'experimenting', and Aruna doesn't agree with everything, so to say. At the same time I agree with Dugafola's 'thin line', between rubbish and what can turn into a great solo.
About Sidiki Camara and Sega Sidibe: they are both great Malian masters. They teach traditional solo's which you can often hear in traditional celebrations when the rhythms are played. They are all dance-solo's. And listening to this kind of music a lot, I hear masters using the same solophrases in different places in the rhythm sometimes. Maybe you are right that they correspond with other dance moves. I will research this in a month when I leave for Bamako for three weeks! I can't wait! And I will let everybody know what I found out.

[michi]

the music is not counting at this very moment.

I am unable to understand the above sentence, what does that exactly mean ?

I agree with Daniel. When the konkoni player stops, there is no reaction from the soloist, and neither is there one when the konkoni player enters again, even though the konkoni player resumes the pattern phase-shifted by two beats. (The third open tone of the Mendiani accompaniment that goes on the one 1 is on the 3 instead, making the 3 the "new 1".) If that happened to me as a soloist, I would at least look at the konkoni player and do the mental readjustment to perceive the anchor of the cycle in the new place. I might also raise my eyebrows about the shift, or make an apologetic gesture for having thrown the konkoni player.

But none of this happens. It's almost as if the konkoni player were not there, except for the bit right near the beginning where Aruna scolds Brulye for the "bent" phrase.

Michi.