wrapping rings with rubber

[callywally]

hello, i see this invention of wrapping inner tube around drum rings and wondering is this a good idea as its the first time i hear of this and have had enough of slipping rings on my 13 1/2" djembe. what you think? has any one tried it? i have not come across it b4 til i see it on the link.
http://www.ehow.com/video_4974071_djemb ... -bike.html

[shortypalmer]

I checked out the video. I see nothing wrong with doing that, I do agree that it could make your flesh ring have a smaller ID. dont thing it will be a problem. as for keeping the skin from slipping, not sure, that is a whole different thread. As to why skins slip, not sure. I have in the past thought that putting cloth on the flesh ring can cause the skin to slip, i think in some cases it can but not all. It could be ring sizing. if the crown ring is close to being the same size as the flesh ring that might cause it. I am looking forward to hearing other answers. What I do for my flesh ring is paint it, any can of spray paint works, all i am trying to do is keep the rust off the skin.

[michi]

In my opinion, the main cause of skin slip are rings that are too large.

As for the rubber wrap, I've never tried it, but suspect it would work. Not sure whether it will be better than fabric though. The rubber will eventually go brittle and disintegrate, so you would have to replace it periodically. (But fabric wrap doesn't last forever either, so that's not a big deal.)

If you have a flesh ring made of deformed rebar, no wrap is necessary at all. On Jeremy Tomasck's recommendation, I've done a number of djembes that way, and they all held up fine. (You will need wrap though if you have a smooth rolled steel flesh ring.)

Cheers,

Michi.

[shortypalmer]

hi michi, you said if you have smooth steel you need a wrap, i have always thought that a wrap was to prevent rust, i paint my rings for that purpose. I have had some skins slip with one being real recent. I would like to know why

[michi]

Hi Shorty,

I don't know where this aversion to rust comes from. True, if a flesh ring has no wrap, it'll rust a little on the surface, and the skin will get rust stains where it contacts the ring. But that doesn't do any real harm to either the ring or the skin. (I guess, eventually, the ring will accumulate too much rust and weaken, but it would take decades I suspect.) If anything, I think the rust helps to prevent slip because it is a little rough and adds to the friction.

Jeremy Tomasck recommends to not use any wrap at all on the flesh ring (for a flesh ring made of deformed rebar). When I first saw him do this, I was really surprised. (I'd learned to always wrap the flesh ring and assumed it had to be done that way.) But Jeremy says that it isn't necessary and my own experience confirms this. I've done quite a few djembes without any wrap on the flesh ring (and nothing to prevent rust), and it works just fine. (Some of these djembes are at extremely high tension, by the way.)

The problem with the smooth rolled steel rings is that they are slippery, making it more likely for the skin to slip. That's why I prefer to use cloth wrap on those. I wind the cloth on tightly, with enough layers to cover the ring to nearly 1mm in thickness with fabric. The advantage of that is that the cloth will give where the loops on the crown ring press into it. In turn, the skin deforms around the loops, forming a pair of depressions at each knot, which increases friction and reduces the likelihood of skin slip because the skin locks itself onto the crown ring.

Jeremy is a bit more extreme than me: he recommends to throw away cold rolled steel rings and to replace them with deformed rebar ones. Personally, I wouldn't go quite as far. But I admit that I have a preference for deformed rebar for the flesh ring. The skin shapes itself to all the little ridges on the ring, which increases friction and reduces the likelihood of skin slip.

By the way, I saw plenty of djembes in Mali without wrap on any of the rings. They all worked just fine The ring wrap really is just an aesthetic thing (on the crown ring and the bottom ring) and, for the flesh ring, it's optional.

As to skin slip, I haven't had this happen to me in several years now. Not sure whether I'm just plain lucky--sooner or later, I'll probably have it happen to me again. But, so far, I've had a good run, with dozens and dozens of djembes without slip. The worst way to deal with the flesh ring (IMO) is to wrap it too thinly or loosely. Especially with deformed rebar, with a thin layer of wrap, the fabric covers the ridges of the ring, so the skin can't lock itself as much onto those, but the fabric doesn't have enough give to allow the skin to shape itself to the loops on the crown ring either, making skin slip more likely.

And wide rings are recipe for skin slip for sure. On drums with oversized rings (say more than a 5mm gap between the ring and the shell), it's very easy to pull the rings down without having the skin come with them.

Cheers,

Michi.

[shortypalmer]

I dont thing there is anything to worry about with rust on the rings but i have seen holes in skins and have skins rip on rusty rings right on the rust spots so i do think there is a need to prevent rust. i have always been concerned with wrapping the ring with cloth because i have always thought that if you turn the ring so that the wrap can unravel as the skin is being stretched it could cause the skin to slip. i suppose if you always turn the wrap so it tightens the wrap as the skin stretches it would be ok. i have had somebody tell me that using hairless skins will cause the skin to slip. with hair on the skin it will not slip. maybe so, the last two i had slip were both hairless skins. the next hairless skin i put on will have cloth. I would use deformed rebar if i could get it. 1/4 inch seems hard to find here in the states, dont think i have ever seen a skin slip on rebar.

[michi]

I dont thing there is anything to worry about with rust on the rings but i have seen holes in skins and have skins rip on rusty rings right on the rust spots so i do think there is a need to prevent rust.

Hmmm... So far, I haven't seen this. I would think that the rust would have to be fairly thick on the flesh ring for that to happen?

i suppose if you always turn the wrap so it tightens the wrap as the skin stretches it would be ok.

Yes, orienting the wrap such that it is tightened rather than loosened as the skin tries to pull past it should help.

i have had somebody tell me that using hairless skins will cause the skin to slip. with hair on the skin it will not slip.

I don't know. I've seen slipping skins with and without hair. Certainly, I've seen quite a lot of hairless skins that slipped.

I would use deformed rebar if i could get it. 1/4 inch seems hard to find here in the states

Yes, the stuff is as rare as hen's teeth in Australia too. I haven't been able to get my hands on any so far

dont think i have ever seen a skin slip on rebar.

I have, but only on wrapped flesh rings.

I've also experimented in the past with using cloth strapping tape (such as Leukoplast) as the wrap for the flesh ring. I'm not fond of it. For one, I've seen skins slip with that stuff too, and it's a pain to get off again. (And it needs replacing regularly because, after a while, it loses it's elasticity and sets as hard as rock.)

Cheers,

Michi.

[Beerfola]

I just had a wet shave (shaved prior to mounting on the djembe) skin slip the other day. The rings were tight enough against the shell to leave indentations from the cradle knots. Flesh ring was cloth wrapped cold rolled steel. This was a Guinea shell that had quite a bit of angle, narrowing from the bearing edge to the stem. As soon as the the rings were pulled down enough to clear the tight fit between the cradle knot pinching the wood the skin started to creak and slip (during the final tuning on the dry pull). I might just consider this factor when reheading similarly shaped shells. These might be good candidates for a three top ring system, skin over, or braid. I've never had a skin slip (out) with any of these three approaches. I am an advocate of the three top ring system because it really cinches down and does not slip. You can really tell when you tune the drum because it takes fewer diamonds to reach a high pitch when using three rings. However, I only use three rings on really beefy shells because the extra tension on a thick skin can really torque and deform a thinner shell.
I have used the rubber bike tube before on over sized rings only. The material is a bit thick for my liking even when pulled and stretched tightly during the wrap. I use a tight tolerance on my rings so there is not much room even for thin cloth wrap. There were no other ill effects and there was no apparent slipping due to the rubber.
A question for you ... When you do a "traditional" mounting with the top ring exposed (not skin over) when do YOU trim the excess skin around the rings? When it's completely dry or when it's wet and pliable. I've been thinking about leaving the skin tied and drawn to the middle during the wet pull and through the drying. Then release the "purse strings", do the dry pull and then trim the excess. This way the skin would stay tight and there would be plenty of skin left if the rings started to slip down.

[michi]

A question for you ... When you do a "traditional" mounting with the top ring exposed (not skin over) when do YOU trim the excess skin around the rings?

I've done both, cutting the skin when it is still wet, and waiting until it has dried.

Cutting when wet is a lot easier and quicker. The downside is that you might still get a bit of slip during the dry pull.

The other method is to let the skin dry with the skin flap still tied into the center, under tension. Once the skin has dried, I do a light dry pull with the skin still tied and then open up the drawstring loop and trim off the excess. I've never had a skin slip this way. The downside is that it's a lot more work to trim off the excess skin once it is dry.

Generally, I trim off when dry for a thin skin, and trim off when wet for a thick skin. (Thin skins seem to slip more easily and they are easier to cut when dry.)

What also seems to help is to be patient during the dry pull. Don't try to tighten too much in a single round. Instead, take your time and do two to four rounds, tightening a little more each time. That way, you are less likely to have lower pressure on one side of the rings, which forms a weak spot where the skin might slip.

Cheers,

Michi.

[Beerfola]

All good points. Most of my slips have been with thinner skins. Plus I may have been a little greedy with the pulling bar. If I do most of the tightening with diamonds I usually don't get as much noticeable slip. The bar can be awkward and sometimes leads to haste. I really need a pulling stand.

[michi]

really need a pulling stand.

If you do more than five or six drums a year, it's worth the investment, IMO. And you can make one very cheaply. Check out Bolokada's contraption for an example. Cheap, simple, and effective.

Cheers,

Michi.

[Djembe-nerd]

I cut the skin when wet and then weave it. If the weave is good and tight it becomes a stopping point for slips. (See photo below )But the first or second dry pull should not be to take the skin to solo pitch. Thats when I had the last slips. Now I wait and take it to solo pitch in 2-3 weeks over 3-4 small increaments.

I also had the slip problem when I was using the pulling tool by hand.

Since I have the pulling stand, its easier and more precise. See topic

technical-advice/pulling-tool-alternative-t2706.html#p18450

[Trog]

I thought tucking the skin back in was a good way to stop skin slip.

I was thinking that more sets of verticals would help due to more rope knots making contact with the skin against the flesh ring.
Another thought I have is to do with powder coating the flesh ring with a crinkle powder. I have done it to some bike parts and the finish is rough and tough. I bought my basic kit for around 100 bucks and whats nice about powder coating is that the part is ready to use in approx 1/2 hr.
picture of bar end,

Here is a page with some options on Crinkles.
http://www.powder365.ca/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_12
Here is a page with some different coating gun kits.
http://www.eastwood.com/hotcoat-powder-coating/powder-coat-guns.html?srccode=ga050085&gclid=CNPioa-LhqsCFSEEQAodsDCo0g

[shortypalmer]

i do the roll the end of the skin on some drums. that is fairly easy. i use a spot of super glue to keep it rolled as i make it. as for cutting the skin off when wet or dry. i always cut it off wet and leave it high in case there is any slipping. i have finally gotten better at keeping it straight. if it is not straight i can use a hook blade razor knife to cut it off afterwards when dry.

[Trog]

How is the skin weave done? I would like to try it.