Inept teachers

[e2c]

... white ex-kit playing pseudo teachers playing horrendously out of tune junk drums from Ghana, or eek, Remos, are there on youtube?

You know, as much as I agree, I also feel that it's a big world, and that there's no law against people doing things like playing snare drum rudiments on djembe or any other percussion instrument. Some of the guys who post vids like that are having fun doing what they do - and a few of them do it really well. I see no need to trash them. (Or others, for that matter.) There's so much nastiness on Youtube itself (in the comments); why not take the attitude that dununbabe's talking about? (btw, I'm not saying that you're trashing those fellas!)

I honestly think that threads like this one tend to foster a "private club" atmosphere - not intentionally. But I can see people coming from the kind of background that RhythmHouse describes feeling very turned off when they see posts and thread titles that have a negative slant. I'm not intending this as a criticism of any member here, just as a suggestion. (or perhaps "caution" is a better word?)

And actually, these youtube guys don't really bother me as much as the folks who learned djembe from communing with the spirits, channeling from the gods and looking up the rhythm patterns on the WAP pages. We have folks like that teaching around here.

I know exactly what you mean, Rachel... which is why I ended up waiting nearly 20 years to find a teacher who could actually teach W. African-style djembe and duns rather than some kind of personal, peculiar, American mix of things.

That said, i think most of those folks truly mean well, and I don't feel comfortable with making public put-downs of them - myself, that is. I'm not wanting to sound judgmental, and I hope that comes across in what I'm saying. (Damn, text-only is so hard sometimes!)

At the end of the day, it makes me so grateful that I found the real deal right off the bat. That was God smiling on me, I am sure.

You were incredibly fortunate - or maybe "graced" - in that, believe me!

[michi]

I think this thread is funny, in the same way the 'professional djembes' is.

I considered posting in the Humor forum but, on reflection, felt that it was more appropriate here. While I can see the humorous aspect, I also the see the damaging aspect. It seems that imparting completely incorrect information and technique is a more serious than selling a poor-quality djembe.

Imagine if those people at that first dance class I showed up to had been rude to me, told me that this class is only for traditional players, or gave me the brush off, as I have seen so many other players do to new people who don't know anything...? Would I have continued?

Quite possibly not and I agree that such a reaction would have been totally inappropriate. But I'm not sure how well the analogy holds up. After all, you didn't go in there with zero knowledge and then proceed to appoint yourself an expert and teach the people around you...

Just to make this clear, in case I didn't earlier: I have no problem whatsoever with people doing absolutely anything on the djembe. For all I care, they can hit them with mallets (and that's perfectly OK--anything goes when it comes to artistic expression). Similarly, I don't expect people to be competent. They can't possibly be: we all start out incompetent and get better (or not) as we keep playing. People are entitled to be as competent or incompetent as they like.

I do have a problem though when someone completely incompetent sets himself/herself up as a teacher and proceeds to teach complete bullshit that is positively damaging to people's future development on the djembe and that runs roughshod over the tradition. It's the combination of incompetence and teaching that I object to.

In principle, that's really no different from someone claiming to be able to teach surgery while being incompetent. Of course, because the damaging aspects of poor teaching of surgery are a lot more serious than poor teaching of djembe, we strictly regulate teaching of surgery...

Some of the guys who post vids like that are having fun doing what they do - and a few of them do it really well. I see no need to trash them. (Or others, for that matter.)

Right. And these are not the people I'm talking about. As I said, anyone can hit a djembe any way they like and make potentially great music, whether they use traditional technique or not. Nothing wrong with that. But there is lot wrong with claiming to be teacher of the djembe without having even the foggiest notion of how to play the instrument and without a clue about the tradition, the rhythms, the culture, etc. And there are many people out there who claim to be teaching traditional rhythm X, when what they teach bears no more than a passing resemblance (if that) to the real rhythm X.

I also find it offensive when people decorate themselves with Mamady's name and claim to have studied with him when, in all likelihood, their actual contact time with Mamady was a single afternoon workshop. For a student to claim a master as his/her teacher, I think there should be a minimum of true contact, and the master should have acknowledged the person as his student. I don't know where the balance tips; at a guess, people should probably study with a teacher for 50-100 hours before they can legitimately claim to have studied with or under that teacher. An afternoon workshop or a once-off camp once upon a time doesn't cut it, IMO.

And actually, these youtube guys don't really bother me as much as the folks who learned djembe from communing with the spirits, channeling from the gods and looking up the rhythm patterns on the WAP pages. We have folks like that teaching around here.

We have them too. Usually, they throw in liberal doses of shamanism, claims of awakening the Chi, channeling the spirits, and so on. While I don't like or believe that kind of thing, at least they leave the tradition alone and--at least the ones I've come across--don't make an false claims about the djembe's origin or pretending to teach traditional rhythms. (All the ones I've seen though have hopeless technique, so they still do damage to some extent.)

I honestly think that threads like this one tend to foster a "private club" atmosphere - not intentionally. But I can see people coming from the kind of background that RhythmHouse describes feeling very turned off when they see posts and thread titles that have a negative slant. I'm not intending this as a criticism of any member here, just as a suggestion. (or perhaps "caution" is a better word?)

Well, seeing that I started this thread, I have to shoulder some of the responsibility. (And that's fine with me--no offence taken, and my ego can handle it )

This forum is mostly about traditional music when it comes to the djembe so, to some extent, it is a private club: one about djembe and West African percussion (among other things). Necessarily, any group of enthusiasts (nerds) will erect some barriers around itself. For example, we don't discuss souped-up cars in this forum--that topic is out of scope here. And we don't discuss jazz drum kit much either. That's closer to the forum theme but still (mostly) out of scope.

So, are bad teachers in scope? I think they are. We have had numerous enquiries from people who basically come and ask "could someone please check out this or that video and tell me whether the rhythm is accurate or the teacher knows what he/she is doing?" How is the beginning djembe player supposed to know the difference between good and bad teaching? Just by being shown what's good, but not by being shown what's bad? I think not. Pointing out bad teachers is valuable to prospective students just as pointing out good teachers is.

E2c, I hear you on the private club thing. Yes, expert forums such as this one are often intimidating. That's not so much because of a desire for arrogant exclusivity on part of the participants, but because forums such as this are a place where people get a chance to discuss the more arcane and in-depth aspects. After all, if all the information could be found in readily-available books and videos, there would be no need for this forum...

At the same time, people who find a forum such as this probably find it because they want to learn more. And I believe that most people are smart enough to form their own judgement. They can ignore the bits that are too arcane for them, and they can use the bits that they find valuable.

And this site offers plenty for just about any level of experience, I think. We have topics and pages about the basics as well as arcane and advanced stuff. It's a smorgasbord--people can pick and choose as they see fit.

As far as bad teachers are concerned, I think I will continue to point at the charlatans. That doesn't mean that I have to trash them. But it does mean that, if someone publicly says: "I know what I'm doing on the djembe and I'm going to teach you Kuku", I'm at liberty to say "Well, actually, that's not the Kuku the masters teach and, by the way, your technique sucks."

Cheers,

Michi.

[bubudi]

just adding my thoughts on this.

this site has a large patronage of people who are interested in the tradition. that is not to say that we don't enjoy other ways of playing djembe, including using it for other styles of music. we are also dedicated to improving the knowledge of traditional west african culture and music on this site, and music in general, through discussion, articles, videos and the like. we have a vast amount of information here on the traditions, and as we know, the traditions are so deep that the more you learn the more you realise that you are just scraping the surface. we keep it mostly to west african music and dance (and mostly traditional) because there is no point trying to make this a jazz board or a guitar board. this is the number 1 english language board that people go to for reading about and discussing the djembe and its culture. judging by recent memberships, it's fast becoming the number one djembe board internationally. you the people are the ones who've made this choice - djembe is the common link that ties the majority of you.

recently we had a discussion about different types of djembe ensembles found in west africa. there are traditional and neo-traditional ensembles, pop groups that implement djembe, etc. there are also many fusion groups in the west that utilise djembe - some of them with competent djembe players who have good grounding in the tradition. others like to use a non traditional approach to playing djembe, including techniques from frame drums, drum set, congas, indian tabla, etc. they may use it in blues, jazz, rock, funk, etc. it's all good and all welcome here. even traditionalists like mamady and famoudou use techniques that are not traditional for djembe, and invent their own from time to time.

as for teaching these non traditional styles of drumming on the djembe, i see nothing wrong with that. however, i think many of these youtube teachers largely do it with no idea that other people may be under the impression that they are teaching traditional rhythms or technique. certainly it would be better if they were clear on that. if they haven't bothered to learn and perfect the traditional way of playing, they could say 'this is the technique i personally developed'. they can say 'this rhythm is based on kuku', rather than calling it kuku.

however, people don't always think of how what they do and don't do may be perceived by others. they may have a completely different picture in their head - that people may like their video and get something out of it. we can't control the way people think or act. we can control our reactions, however, and patiently point out that something is not traditional, counsel them on technique (if they are willing to learn), point them in the direction of some good teachers or learning materials. it's a far better way to get a positive response from them. personally though, i think few would care to take this on unless they heard the music for themselves and there was some 'wow factor' involved.

i also agree largely with ali that when people see the real deal, they will naturally see the vast difference and gravitate to that. if they don't, then they simply have different aesthetic preferences, and you will never convince them that traditional technique is better. we may not understand someone who prefers using 'bongo-dumbek-drumset' technique on a remo djembe, but then, personally i don't understand how someone can like thrash or screamo music. people are just different, it's part of what makes this world an interesting place.

many of our members really dislike remo djembes, synthetic skins, poor technique, etc. it's the nature of the beast. whether we like to admit it or not, we are a bit of a club here. however, there's always room to discuss remos, alternative techniques, synthetic skins, etc, as we have in the past.

[e2c]

I think there is a responsibility here - for all of us - in terms of trying to keep things positive. (Which is not to say that there shouldn't be any criticism... but there is a big difference between doing that kind of thing constructively and just tearing things and people down.)

I belong to a number of specialist music boards, and I do see a lot of the "I/we know more than you could ever hope to because I/we listen to X" (or play X or do X) sort of posts. It gets old very fast. And it definitely is intimidating for people who are new to the music, or to forums, or both. And there are entirely positive ways to frame things, as in "I just started listening to X and think it's great. Can anyone suggest more?" (etc.).

And - like dununbabe and others have said - I think that people who are serious and passionate about wanting to learn and play music aren't ultimately going to be paying much attention to the kinds of videos michi posted earlier. They'll probably keep looking.

[bubudi]

I think there is a responsibility here - for all of us - in terms of trying to keep things positive. (Which is not to say that there shouldn't be any criticism... but there is a big difference between doing that kind of thing constructively and just tearing things and people down.)

absolutely, it comes down to respect. rule number one on djembefola.com.

criticism can be constructive and it can also be disheartening or intimidating. it's what i was getting at with an earlier thread. we need to especially be careful when naming names. this community will always be about including people from all walks of life, informing, sharing. like all boards we may get our moments when we encounter negativity but our philosophy has prevailed, even touched others and made them rethink their life. it's one of the many gifts the djembe has to offer.

[dununbabe]

Imagine if those people at that first dance class I showed up to had been rude to me, told me that this class is only for traditional players, or gave me the brush off, as I have seen so many other players do to new people who don't know anything...? Would I have continued?

Quite possibly not and I agree that such a reaction would have been totally inappropriate. But I'm not sure how well the analogy holds up. After all, you didn't go in there with zero knowledge and then proceed to appoint yourself an expert and teach the people around you...

Ah but I DID go in there with ZERO knowledge! AND I was POMPOUS, because I already could play 8 other instruments WELL. I had an attitude that I needed NO lessons on an instrument that one simply "hits"!

As I said, anyone can hit a djembe any way they like and make potentially great music, whether they use traditional technique or not. Nothing wrong with that. But there is lot wrong with claiming to be teacher of the djembe without having even the foggiest notion of how to play the instrument and without a clue about the tradition, the rhythms, the culture, etc. And there are many people out there who claim to be teaching traditional rhythm X, when what they teach bears no more than a passing resemblance (if that) to the real rhythm X.

ah well, I was, um, teaching what I had learned from other djembe players/teachers fairly quickly. Probably after about only 4 months of study. Its embarrassing to me now. Some of what I learned, AND taught, I now know to be incorrect. There is video somewhere in the world of me teaching Yankadi with WAYYYY to much swing. There are audio recordings of me teaching a 4/4 Kakilambe. The point is that I was so excited to be learning, that I taught toooo quickly. So maybe thats one reason why these vids exist; people finding the djembe, and prematurely "teaching" what they have been taught, not really doing research, but parroting what they have learned from possibly another incorrect teacher.

E2c, I hear you on the private club thing. Yes, expert forums such as this one are often intimidating. That's not so much because of a desire for arrogant exclusivity on part of the participants, but because forums such as this are a place where people get a chance to discuss the more arcane and in-depth aspects. After all, if all the information could be found in readily-available books and videos, there would be no need for this forum...

Yes-- for example; everyone KNOWS that if Expert Village had somebody showing a Piano Lesson, but they played it with their feet, or lit it on fire, or any other deviation, we would all know it was a joke. But with djembe, something relatively new in the common music world as well as surrounded with mystery and misinformation, I believe we tend to be very "protective" about the culture and the traditional information.

As far as bad teachers are concerned, I think I will continue to point at the charlatans. That doesn't mean that I have to trash them. But it does mean that, if someone publicly says: "I know what I'm doing on the djembe and I'm going to teach you Kuku", I'm at liberty to say "Well, actually, that's not the Kuku the masters teach and, by the way, your technique sucks."

You have every right to speak your mind Michi, but if you say it that way, will it be helpful to the djembe cause? What if the person is just very excited to be playing djembe? What if they really love it, but have only been learning from other incorrect teachers? What if, with a little kindness, they have a change of attitude and a change of heart and really start researching? Goodness knows, I taught incorrectly for quite a while. Would you have told me that about my bad Kuku?

peace.

[michi]

Up front, my apologies for the length of this post. I guess I feel passionately about this, so it ended up fairly lengthy...

Ah but I DID go in there with ZERO knowledge! AND I was POMPOUS, because I already could play 8 other instruments WELL. I had an attitude that I needed NO lessons on an instrument that one simply "hits"!

Oops! Well, you have mended your ways so I'm sure the gods of the djembe will forgive you

ah well, I was, um, teaching what I had learned from other djembe players/teachers fairly quickly. Probably after about only 4 months of study. [...] The point is that I was so excited to be learning, that I taught toooo quickly. So maybe thats one reason why these vids exist; people finding the djembe, and prematurely "teaching" what they have been taught, not really doing research, but parroting what they have learned from possibly another incorrect teacher.

Yes, that is certainly a possibility: enthusiasm running away with people and passing on information that was imparted incorrectly in the first place. On the other hand, I think there is also a personality thing here. I started showing people what I'd learned fairly early on in the game too, and I'm sure that I made my share of mistakes as well. But a crucial difference is that I never called myself a teacher--I simply told people that I'm happy to share what I learned. And I never took money from anyone for showing them things. (The money thing started only a year ago, when I started giving formal classes, and that only after I had two of my African teachers tell me that I should go and start teaching.)

I guess there is a difference between people sharing things and people who are on an ego trip. The guy from the Expert Village video is a good example. I can see ego being more important than the music when I watch this video. The pretentiousness is clearly visible (at least to me).

Mark Powers strikes me as similarly inclined. He bills himself as an expert percussionist on his web site, with a long list of previous accomplishments. I have no idea how good a percussionist he is on other instruments. For all I know, he may be excellent. But, if he has that much experience in percussion already, then I understand even less how he, with good conscience, can set himself up as a djembe teacher (and take money for it). After all, with all that experience, it should be even easier for him to tell that his own playing is nowhere near good enough for him to be teaching.

As far as bad teachers are concerned, I think I will continue to point at the charlatans. That doesn't mean that I have to trash them. But it does mean that, if someone publicly says: "I know what I'm doing on the djembe and I'm going to teach you Kuku", I'm at liberty to say "Well, actually, that's not the Kuku the masters teach and, by the way, your technique sucks."

You have every right to speak your mind Michi, but if you say it that way, will it be helpful to the djembe cause?

I hear you, and I agree that there are different ways to say that the person's technique could do with some improvement. And I agree that the more polite forms of expressing this are more likely to actually achieve something

I guess what I'm reacting to isn't just the bad technique and claiming to be a teacher, but the arrogance that often goes along with that, which goads me into being harsher than I otherwise would be. I have come across such people quite a bit in the past. I meet someone at a drumming circle and chat before anyone has started playing. Some guy walks up to me and starts talking and, within the first 60 seconds, manages to "let it slip" that he is a Teacher (with a capital "T") and kindly offers me to give me some tips later, even though he's never heard me play. And he introduces me to two other people, being to careful to mention each time that so-and-so "is a student of mine." Half an hour later I hear that capital-T teacher play and I see his technique and I cringe...

But, yes, thanks for your feedback--I shall endeavor to be more restrained in my responses in the future.

What if the person is just very excited to be playing djembe? What if they really love it, but have only been learning from other incorrect teachers? What if, with a little kindness, they have a change of attitude and a change of heart and really start researching?

As I said, there are different ways to teach: with and without taking money, and with and without humility and awareness of one's own limitations. Nothing wrong with showing other people what I have learned, no matter what my level of skill. I've watched beginners at camps practice together and correct each other, and that's a great way to learn: everyone is better off, even though the "teacher" has no more skill than the students.

It's a different thing to say "I am a djembe teacher and I'm going to charge you x Dollars per lesson." As soon as I designate myself "djembe teacher" and take people's money, I have a professional and ethical responsibility to live up to. Now, there are legit djembe teachers out there at various skill levels. Heck, three years from now, chances are that I'll be a better player and teacher than I am now, and that doesn't stop me from teaching today. But I stick to a set of rules:

• I am honest enough to admit to my students when I don't know something rather than trying to bullshit them. Whenever possible, I do the research to find the answer and pass it on to my students.
  
• I do not teach something unless I can play it solidly and correctly with correct micro-timing and dynamics.
  
• I do not teach something without knowing the relevant cultural background and passing that on to my students.
  
• I do not teach something without acknowledging the teacher(s) I learned it from.
  
• I make sure that what I teach is accurate, exactly as taught to me by my teacher. If there are variations I've heard elsewhere, but I am not certain that they are traditional, I point out the variation and make it clear that it doesn't come from a reliable source.
  
• I make sure to point out the difference in traditional and ballet style, both for variations in rhythm and variations in handing.
  
• I do not teach something that is beyond my skill level. I can play an 11-roll at 140 beats, but I cannot play it cleanly at that speed just yet. So, I don't try and teach it.
  
• I don't ever hold back on my knowledge. Anything and everything I've learned is there to share--I don't hoard my knowledge and meter things out in carefully-controlled (and paid-for) doses like so many other teachers I know.
  
• My biggest reward as teacher is a student who surpasses me.

I guess what I'm getting at here is a code of ethics for teachers. I'm sure the above list could be expanded. (Anyone interested in adding points to flesh this out a bit more? I'd be happy to collate and post it.)

All this reminds of the following parabel I came across in Elizabeth Haich's book "Initiation":

The white magician, when he wants to help one of his pupils onward, binds the pupil to himself in the form of an eight. In this way, he leaves his pupil his full independence, because both teacher and pupil form the mid-points, each of his own individual circle. On the contrary, the black magician takes away his pupil's independence by taking him into a circle with himself in such such a way that the black magician is in the centre of the circle and the pupil just inside the circumference in the same way a satellite's orbit forms a ring around the sun.

I guess I'm lamenting that there are too many "black magician" djembe teachers out there, and too few "white magician" ones.

Goodness knows, I taught incorrectly for quite a while. Would you have told me that about my bad Kuku?

If I'd been there in person? Almost certainly. And I don't think you would have experienced it as a put-down either. When I correct someone in person, I'm quite gentle

Cheers,

Michi.

[e2c]

Ali - I absolutely love your honesty and compassion, too. To admit one's own mistakes is a "big" thing to do; to admit them with a sense of humor about oneself, even more so. My hat is off to you!

and fwiw, I did sort of take "Expert Village" to task in an earlier post in this thread, re. not just those djembe vids but the woman who's done their "African dance" instructional series. (Those quotation marks are there for a reason. )

Imagine if those people at that first dance class I showed up to had been rude to me, told me that this class is only for traditional players, or gave me the brush off, as I have seen so many other players do to new people who don't know anything...? Would I have continued?

Quite possibly not and I agree that such a reaction would have been totally inappropriate. But I'm not sure how well the analogy holds up. After all, you didn't go in there with zero knowledge and then proceed to appoint yourself an expert and teach the people around you...

Ah but I DID go in there with ZERO knowledge! AND I was POMPOUS, because I already could play 8 other instruments WELL. I had an attitude that I needed NO lessons on an instrument that one simply "hits"!

As I said, anyone can hit a djembe any way they like and make potentially great music, whether they use traditional technique or not. Nothing wrong with that. But there is lot wrong with claiming to be teacher of the djembe without having even the foggiest notion of how to play the instrument and without a clue about the tradition, the rhythms, the culture, etc. And there are many people out there who claim to be teaching traditional rhythm X, when what they teach bears no more than a passing resemblance (if that) to the real rhythm X.

ah well, I was, um, teaching what I had learned from other djembe players/teachers fairly quickly. Probably after about only 4 months of study. Its embarrassing to me now. Some of what I learned, AND taught, I now know to be incorrect. There is video somewhere in the world of me teaching Yankadi with WAYYYY to much swing. There are audio recordings of me teaching a 4/4 Kakilambe. The point is that I was so excited to be learning, that I taught toooo quickly. So maybe thats one reason why these vids exist; people finding the djembe, and prematurely "teaching" what they have been taught, not really doing research, but parroting what they have learned from possibly another incorrect teacher.

E2c, I hear you on the private club thing. Yes, expert forums such as this one are often intimidating. That's not so much because of a desire for arrogant exclusivity on part of the participants, but because forums such as this are a place where people get a chance to discuss the more arcane and in-depth aspects. After all, if all the information could be found in readily-available books and videos, there would be no need for this forum...

Yes-- for example; everyone KNOWS that if Expert Village had somebody showing a Piano Lesson, but they played it with their feet, or lit it on fire, or any other deviation, we would all know it was a joke. But with djembe, something relatively new in the common music world as well as surrounded with mystery and misinformation, I believe we tend to be very "protective" about the culture and the traditional information.

As far as bad teachers are concerned, I think I will continue to point at the charlatans. That doesn't mean that I have to trash them. But it does mean that, if someone publicly says: "I know what I'm doing on the djembe and I'm going to teach you Kuku", I'm at liberty to say "Well, actually, that's not the Kuku the masters teach and, by the way, your technique sucks."

You have every right to speak your mind Michi, but if you say it that way, will it be helpful to the djembe cause? What if the person is just very excited to be playing djembe? What if they really love it, but have only been learning from other incorrect teachers? What if, with a little kindness, they have a change of attitude and a change of heart and really start researching? Goodness knows, I taught incorrectly for quite a while. Would you have told me that about my bad Kuku?

peace.

[e2c]

I guess what I'm reacting to isn't just the bad technique and claiming to be a teacher, but the arrogance that often goes along with that, which goads me into being harsher than I otherwise would be.

michi, I honestly think that in many cases, these people aren't being arrogant at all. they truly believe that they know what they're doing.

So the question (or at least one of the questions) is: how do we help people to discover what they're missing? Because they definitely are missing out on a lot.

and dununbabe said the following, which is - to my mind - absolutely on point:

What if the person is just very excited to be playing djembe? What if they really love it, but have only been learning from other incorrect teachers? What if, with a little kindness, they have a change of attitude and a change of heart and really start researching?

[michi]

michi, I honestly think that in many cases, these people aren't being arrogant at all. they truly believe that they know what they're doing.

I'm sure that's true for many, yes. In case of the two guys I mentioned earlier, I have my doubts though. I just find it inconceivable that this is pure innocence. (I may be wrong with that judgment, I know.)

So the question (or at least one of the questions) is: how do we help people to discover what they're missing? Because they definitely are missing out on a lot.

I guess it comes down to education, and continuing to carry the torch. And yes, I have taken yours and Ali's comments on board: friendly works better than unfriendly.

I think this site is a great resource to help with that. I'll have a think about contributing something to the general information section.

Cheers,

Michi.

[michi]

Another sterling contribution:



Michi.

[michi]

More injuries in the making:









I think I'll get a medical degree and become a hand surgeon. Guaranteed supply of customers for years…

Michi.

[rachelnguyen]

Number two is particularly inexplicable to me. High tone? Huh? You mean that sound that emanates from your soon to be wrecked fingers?

Oh, Mercy, Mercy.