Words, drumming, and language

[michi]

DjembeMoor's recent post describes how he started out drumming in a drum circle and how he later moved out of that environment as his understanding and mastery of drumming increased.

Many drummers have travelled a similar path, including myself. In my case, what drove me away wasn't that there were musical arguments with more accomplished drummers pontificating (although I have experienced that too), but that I simply no longer felt comfortable in drum circles. People didn't understand me, and I didn't understand them, as if we were talking different languages.

I had planned on replying to DjembeMoor'a post later and, per chance, came across a Radiolab episode that was just broadcast by Robyn Williams of the ABC's Science Show. I urge you to take the time to listen to that episode. It'll take an hour of your time, but I promise that it will be worth it.

Briefly, the episode describes research into language and language-less people. Language-less people are born deaf, never learn a language and, moreover, don't have any notion that such a thing as language exists. It's a fascinating description of language and how language shapes thinking.

What really struck me when I listened to that episode was the description of a language-less man who later acquired language and learned to sign. When asked what his life was like while he was still without language, he had problems describing what that was like. "I can no longer think the way I did then. I don't know. I don't remember."

Prior to acquiring language, the man had spent time with other language-less people who had developed a very crude and ineffective sign language of their own. After learning language properly, he no longer wanted to spend time with his former mates because "he could no longer think that way".

The parallel with drum circles of amateurs and trained drummers is very striking here. I have often looked back wistfully at the time where I had an absolute blast at drum circles and how, as I learned more, I lost those happy moments. As far as I was concerned, the drum circles became more and more mundane, noisy, and undisciplined. But, looking at it, what happened of course was that the drum circles stayed exactly the same, but my perception of them changed.

When I go to a drum circle now, it really is as if everyone is speaking a different language. And, moreover, even though I once could, I no longer can (or would want to) speak that language. My learning has not only changed my language, but my concepts. In a very real sense, words give rise to meaning and, without the words, certain concepts can never arise to be thought about.

I'm still dumbstruck by the parallel between language-less people and drum circles. Need to think about this more. I think this is really profound...

Cheers,

Michi.

[Dugafola]

nice post michi.

[James]

This is consisten with my experience. When I was younger and I was discovering new kinds of music for the first time, it was difficult for me to develop an appreciation for it.

The first time I heard Pink Floyd, I only liked the song that said 'we don't need no education' and that's mostly because I was a teenager who didn't like school Now I love Pink Floyd.

The first time I tasted olives / wine and beer, I hated them all and they took a lot of effort to begin to appreciate. As your understanding of something increases so do your appreciation and you begin to critique more and more.

Anyway a very interesting topic, I will check out that podcast when I have some time.

[Waraba]

The first time I tasted olives / wine and beer, I hated them all and they took a lot of effort to begin to appreciate.

You have to keep forcing it until it takes

[EvanP]

I just caught part of the Radiolab piece on NPR on the way home from the airport. I can't wait to listen to the whole thing. It is a fascinating piece, and from personal experience, applicable to learning drummng. There were definitely similarities between my experiences as I learn to hear new elements in the rhythm and the student in the story that had the "aha" moment when he learned that things have names.

I definitely think you're onto something Michi. You're a gentleman and a scholar! Thanks for planting the seed! While I would have heard it without reading your post, I would not have listened so intently on applications to drumming.

Cheers,
Evan

[freefeet]

I think the issue is that within us all is the feral mind of which we were all born. What we call education and learning is simply conditioning that encases and entraps the feral mind. We then become frightened to let go of that conditioning and education as it will release the feral mind - uncontrolled, untamed and spontaneous, without any understanding of the world as we accept it normally.

It's all about letting go, totally letting go, no anchors, no safety net. Be free!

It's like people are so frightened in my country to walk the streets barefoot, they're totally conditioned into wearing shoes and so used to it that they're terrified of what might happen without them on. What happens is that i get to feel every single step as a unique sensation within itself, every stone, every edge of paving, every piece of glass, every thorn, every frozen puddle, every hot sunny piece of tarmac, etc.. And the same in drumming, you've learned to see your drumming as a whole thing, you sit to play a whole piece of music and have forgotten to feel every single note for what it is in itself. You can still walk a whole journey totally feeling one step at a time just as you can still play a djembe one note at a time. But you don't need to pay any attention to the whole journey, just each single step in and of itself just as you don't need to think about the whole piece of music and where it should be going, just play each note as it comes and loose yourself in the experience of each and everyone.

Hope that makes some kind of sense.

[EvanP]

Freefeet,
While your explanation makes sense, listen to the piece, and I think you'll take it to a deeper level. The thesis of the piece is (based on the part that I listened to) that there are "islands" of knowledge that are connected by language. I think Michi's point (and perhaps yours?) is that music/rhythm is a language which also has the ability to connect the islands of knowldge, opening up and putting into context things which have been there for a very long time.

Evan

[michi]

I think Michi's point (and perhaps yours?) is that music/rhythm is a language which also has the ability to connect the islands of knowldge, opening up and putting into context things which have been there for a very long time.

Yes. That, and more. I was particularly impressed by the experiment with the blue wall and the concept "left of blue", which humans don't acquire until they are surprisingly old. That, and the point that language shapes thinking and concepts. So much so that, once someone acquires language, they are no longer able to remember or describe what it was like before they had language.

In a very real sense, acquiring language means losing something as well as gaining something. Concepts and language appear to be inseparably linked and, therefore, semantics and language are linked too. This goes a long way towards explaining the complete inability of many trained musicians to play in a drum circle and enjoy themselves. It's not arrogance or anything like it. Rather, it seems that the trained musician may literally no longer be able to understand the language of the circle.

I remember Mamady talking about this too. Something like "all I hear in a drum circle is noise".

Cheers,

Michi.

[e2c]

I haven't heard this yet - did they mention Susan Schaller's work, by any chance?

...and the point that language shapes thinking and concepts.

From my very limited experience with trying to learn other languages, I'll second this!

Telling time would seem to be pretty straightforward, and yet... try learning to tell time in Spanish, French and German. you will be introduced to three different understandings of time and its nature in the process.

I'm not saying that to sound philosophical and abstract; it's actually very striking how simple things like this - that have to do with basic things in life - are conceptualized in different ways, depending on what language a person is using - and has grown up with. And it's one of the reasons that translation from one language to another can be so difficult - because in many cases, there are no exact equivalents of both words and concepts.

(I think there is a parallel here to different kinds of music - from different cultures - but I don't want to really get into that, because even though some things about music are like spoken language, I don't believe that music of any kind *is* a language per se.)

Hope this makes sense; it's extremely late here and I'm not sure if I'm being as clear as i'd like.

[EvanP]

e2c,
Yes, Susan Schaller was the woman who had the breakthrough with the boy without language.
She considered her idea to act out both teacher and student roles learning sign language, which led to the boy understanding that things have names, as her penultimate achievement.

Michi,
The blue-wall example was the one that really struck me as well. I feel the same way when I learn a new, more complex accompaniment or dundun part. All of a sudden I can hear things in recordings that sounded like rhythmic "jamming" to me before. I've downloaded the podcast. Now I just need some time to finish listening to it. There is really something to the "island connnection" thing.

NPR had the two guys that did the Words piece on Radiolab on yesterday morning, and they were explaining an experiment that demonstrated that prarie dogs communicate not only presence of items, but descriptions as well (i.e. their "barks" include information on height, size, position, speed, etc.) The interview is posted here:

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/20/132650631/new-language-discovered-prairiedogese

[freefeet]

Freefeet,
While your explanation makes sense, listen to the piece, and I think you'll take it to a deeper level. The thesis of the piece is (based on the part that I listened to) that there are "islands" of knowledge that are connected by language. I think Michi's point (and perhaps yours?) is that music/rhythm is a language which also has the ability to connect the islands of knowldge, opening up and putting into context things which have been there for a very long time.

Evan

I listened again to it and still come to the same conclusion.

For me language is a digitisation of an analogue reality. For example, what is an "oak tree"? What do you mean by "oak tree"? For me there is no "oak tree". To label them all as an "oak tree" denies them their individuality completely. You have essentially digitised an analogue form and in so doing ignored reality to simplify things for your own understanding, but in so doing you have lost the understanding and essence of all oak trees.

Like people walking in shoes, every other step is the same, either left or right. For me, barefoot, every step i take is unique and has no need for a name. Each step exists within one moment in time and then it's gone forever and can never be repeated. What would be the point of me giving each step i take a name?

I like Zen. In Zen there is a koan, "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" It's not meant to have an answer, it's meant to make the sitter realise that language is not reality but a nonsense in itself that we convince ourselves is reality.

I've done the classical music thing, formal training in music and all of that. Played the Royal Albert Hall twice. And i can still play formal music if i chose to. But when it comes to drumming, although i learned to play a drum in a formal African teaching i left that behind and far more enjoy the spontaneity and analogue environment of free style drum circles where you just have to keep moving and flowing with what is. Sometimes it ain't that good, sometimes things just work and it's just wonderful. The music doesn't have a name, it exists just in that moment and then it's gone forever, just like my footsteps.

[AoxoA]

On rare occasions, I find a drum circle that has many experienced players. When that happens, I can enjoy a drum circle. However, more often than not it’s a bunch of cave man drumming or worse.

So it all boils down to language. If everyone at the drum circle has the language of a three year old then its not enjoyable. If those with language out number the others by a wide margin, then you can have a rythmic conversation.

[freefeet]

So it all boils down to language. If everyone at the drum circle has the language of a three year old then its not enjoyable.

I presume from this that you've never had children?

I remember with absolute joy in my heart the conversations i had with my two children at that age as they were learning to use words. Precious memories!

We all couldn't speak at one point. One day we all won't speak again.

[AoxoA]

I presume from this that you've never had children?

I remember with absolute joy in my heart the conversations i had with my two children at that age as they were learning to use words. Precious memories!

We all couldn't speak at one point. One day we all won't speak again

Yes, you are right. Bad analogy i suppose....

[freefeet]

Hi, could it be that we're both correct? I just made a post on the Djembe solo - a concept thread about ego imposition and it made me think more on this thread.

I think with my children that although their language was very basic there was always a total lack of ego imposed upon their communication that some adults can't seem to let go of. So where my children and the adults you mentioned probably did have the same language level (albeit in drumming for the adults), the difference is that imposition of ego which makes some basic language users completely joyful to listen to and some a total irritation.