Some find Djembe Bad

[Djembe-nerd]

http://members.cox.net/drum/djembes.htm

[e2c]

I guess the piece that is oriented to drum circle fans... He's got some good points, but...

There are reasons I like to play low-tuned djembes as well as duns, but I think the writer hasn't had a chance to play a really good djembe with a top-quality skin. His thoughts about the djembe's dynamic range make me think he's never had the pleasure...

[bops]

I'm glad I'm not that guy! Imagine, going through life disliking jembe...I shudder at the thought.

[michi]

I'm glad I'm not that guy! Imagine, going through life disliking jembe...I shudder at the thought.

Yes, unthinkable

I find myself agreeing with some of his points. I've come across African teachers who lament the dominance of the djembe because, as versatile a drum it is, there are sounds the djembe can't make that can be obtained by playing other drums. For example, the Ghanaians do awesome stuff with the Treshi (more commonly known as Kpanlogo—Treshi is the traditional name).

I also find that I'm developing something of an averse reaction to drumming circles. For one, I don't really like to play without dunduns, and a lot of drum circles don't have any. Without the dunduns, the heart of the rhythm is missing, and many rhythms end up sounding so similar, they might as well be the same. Also, the lack of knowledge and discipline in drum circles tend to grate on me. There is often no concept of, say, three groups of players each playing a different part so we get a good polyrhythm going. Instead, in many drum circles, there are as many different parts being played simultaneously as there are players. Inevitably, that means every 16th note is being played by someone or other, and there is no rhythm left other than a steady drone. (A lot of people here refer to that as "the train".)

But I also have some doubts about the depth of knowledge of the author of the article. I picked up some mistakes that seem to indicate only limited exposure to the tradition, such as the remark that the drum was reportedly designed in the Middle East or southern Asia. That's clearly incorrect, as is the inclusion of Ghana in the list of Mandingue countries. Also, the statement that the art of djembe drumming once was practiced and handed down only by jelis is wrong according to what I've been taught.

I do appreciate the sentiment that Mandingue rhythms are only one of many possible styles of drumming and that, by carbon-copying only traditional Mandingue rhythms, a degree of expression and creativity is being lost. On the other hand, I believe it is a legitimate choice for people to focus on Mandingue rhythms only. If that's what they like, who's to say that they shouldn't?

The cookie cutter (what he calls "clip-art") style of drumming is a problem though. I see many, many drummers who are unable to exhibit even the tiniest bit of creativity. All they can ever do is regurgitate something they have once learned, over and over, without variation. This becomes particularly evident when I play with people who (I'm sad to say it) follow Mamady. I cannot count the number of times I have heard the same solo original being played for Sökö (the one on Mamady's teaching CD), with the same number of phrases in the same order, religiously repeated four times... That's often combined with poor micro-timing if the player hasn't quite mastered the feel yet.

I sit there and think "Hey, it's perfectly OK to play a note that is not exactly where Mamady once recorded it—no-one is going to lock you up for playing what's inside you: your creativity is something we appreciate." If the same player were to play something that's inside him or her, he/she would not only be more likely to play within their technical capabilities, but we'd get to hear that person's own voice, instead of a poor imitation of Mamady's, and the music would be much better for it.

Mamady has produced a body of educational material that is larger than that of all the other masters put together. The world owes him a great debt for that body of work. But there is also a downside to it. At drum circles, I sometimes meet a person (often from the US) who falls in the "Mamady fundamentalist" category: someone says "let's play Sunu" or some such, someone else plays a call, and a few other players fall in, playing what they (correctly) know as Sunu. Next thing I see is one guy stopping everything and explaining to a kenkeni or djembe player that he's playing his part wrong: "That's not right, this part for Sunu goes like so-and-so. I know because I've studied this rhythm on Mamady's DVD."

What's being lost here is the wider notion of musicianship and the understanding of the deeper grammar of each rhythm. Some of Mamady's versions of rhythms in his teaching materials differ quite a bit from the versions I learned in Mali, for example. Djembe parts aren't the same, dundun patterns are different, etc. For example, Mamady's version of Sunu is correct in that, the way he teaches it, it is Sunu. But if I play the version I learned in Mali, which isn't quite the same, that is also Sunu, and just as correct: both Mamady and my teacher Sega Cisse from Bamako would, without hesitation, say "yes, that's Sunu" if someone were to play the other master's version to them.)

By writing down rhythms and publishing the "definitive version of Sunu", people who have not had the wider exposure to the music fall into the trap of assuming that there is one and only one way to play Sunu, which is simply incorrect.

The deeper understanding of the grammar can come about only by studying with a teacher (preferably more than one, IMO). Mamady himself says in every DVD he's made that a DVD is no substitute for a teacher. But people don't seem to heed his advice and then, in all innocence, become Mamady fundamentalists. I will try and talk to Mamady about this aspect of his work next time I see him. I'd like to get his opinion on this negative side. (I have a suspicion that he will be aware of this problem too, and be concerned about it.)

Cheers,

Michi.

[ubba]

At drum circles, I sometimes meet a person (often from the US) who falls in the "Mamady fundamentalist" category: someone says "let's play Sunu" or some such, someone else plays a call, and a few other players fall in, playing what they (correctly) know as Sunu. Next thing I see is one guy stopping everything and explaining to a kenkeni or djembe player that he's playing his part wrong: "That's not right, this part for Sunu goes like so-and-so. I know because I've studied this rhythm on Mamady's DVD."

Those darn players from the US...what are we to do with them??? Everybody has a valid point if you believe what they are saying, I just listen and sometimes pick up a few pointers, there's wisdom in the wind if you don't let it blow you over. Learning is the best part of life, if you stay with the djembe a life-time or just a moment, keep on learning all you can and then you may have a wind worth listening to. If I'm not learning something new I feel lost, if I should ever decide that I'm done with a specific lesson I shall set it down with reverence and walk away.

[e2c]

@ michi: creating a highly ordered system of teaching (like the Czerny exercises for piano) tends to ... well, what you've discussed re. "the Mamady method."

Which is - with all due respect to Mamady - why I'm uncomfortable with the way a lot of people seem to have elevated him to the status of a demi-god. His way is not the only way.

[michi]

@ michi: creating a highly ordered system of teaching (like the Czerny exercises for piano) tends to ... well, what you've discussed re. "the Mamady method."
Which is - with all due respect to Mamady - why I'm uncomfortable with the way a lot of people seem to have elevated him to the status of a demi-god. His way is not the only way.

I agree with you, and I suspect that Mamady would agree too. It's not really Mamady's fault. He's put the material out there, which was a huge step forward considering that, prior to Mamady's efforts, there was very little available. And Mamady himself keeps pointing out that teaching materials are no substitute for a real teacher.

I can't blame Mamady if people don't heed his advice. And the cult status he has is not something that Mamady has bred deliberately, it seems. Rather, that status was bestowed on him by his followers. In a way, I feel sorry for Mamady too—I mean, these days, it's basically no longer possible for him to open his mouth without every word being recorded, classified, filed, and analysed. Mamady is only human and, I'm sure that he makes mistakes occasionally, just like everyone else. But he doesn't have the same liberty to make mistakes as other people because his every word is being watched.

Years ago, at the height of the computer and internet boom, I was in a similar position with the work I did in distributed computing. Basically, I couldn't open my mouth anymore without being quoted like gospel by someone or other. And that was very uncomfortable: I had to watch myself every step I took, and I couldn't just shoot the breeze with a few people any more and toss half-baked ideas around just to see where they would lead, for fear of having those half-baked ideas being quoted as utter and absolute truth the following week…

I've long been an advocate of having more than one teacher. Every teacher has something different to give and a different musical style. For a student, that not only means more variety and more learning, but it allows the student to see what is different as well as what is common. If a student learns all his/her material from one teacher (and worse, from one set of recordings of that one teacher), much that is important to Mandingue music is lost.

The western mindset probably gets in the way too. People like to have definitive statements about things; "This is black, and this is white." Except that music (and art in general) doesn't work that way. That's true for Mandingue music as much as western music. The notion of a definitive one and only version of "'Round Midnight", with every note frozen in amber, would be anathema to any good jazz musician. Why should it be any different for Mandingue music? The problem here isn't Mamady, the problem are people with little artistic aptitude who approach Mandingue music as if it were some sort of engineering displine…

I really want to to talk with him about this. I'm sure that he'll have an opinion, and I suspect he may be aware of unintended negative side effects of having published so much educational material.

Cheers,

Michi.

[e2c]

I think the things you describe are a natural, if unfortunate, consequence of becoming a "star" or authority, however limited the audience might be that sees a person as that - the guru, whatever.

And I'm really not convinced that other people making lots of teaching DVDs and CDs is going to help matters - unless there's a lot of upfront presentation of ideas like "This is meant as a guide, not as a 100% authoritative source," etc.

I also think some of the problem might be coming from the fact that for many who are "followers," djembe is the very 1st musical instrument they've played, as well as (perhaps) coming from an instructional system (in public school music programs, etc.) where one - and only one - way of doing things is promoted as acceptable, accurate and "right."

That kind of thinking tends to produce a certain amount of rigidity, imo.

Another thing that's a contributing factor for many: overdependence on written notation. I think that, at very best, it serves as an approximation for what's actually played (in this and other W. African percussion traditions), but Westerners tend to view what's written down as gospel.

I dunno - if i was teaching, i think one of the things I would absolutely do is spend time playing some other music (recorded clips) and just letting people develop their listening skills. By that, I don't mean "listen and repeat," I mean listening, period - allowing time for some stuff to sink in.

another thought: if you don't hear the kind of music you're studying outside of class, it just plain takes longer for it to sink in....

It's not as if there are hundreds of good African djembe teachers around, so it's much easier for people to fall into the trap of believing that X's way is the only "right" way. Contrast that with instruments like guitar, piano, bass, etc. and you can easily see that there are many different approaches being taken to those instruments and others...

We all want something "authentic," a piece of whatever it is we're investing our time in. Which is one of the reasons I've said elsewhere on this board that it bothers me immensely when people look to one person - or perhaps a small handful of people - as representatives of *all* W. African culture and music. No matter how good any teacher is, his/her view and way of doing things is only one of many.... but it's very easy (even perfectly natural) to make the mistake of believing that via contact with one person (even if it's only via a DVD), we're somehow getting an "authentic" experience of it all.

Edited to add: I think that the TTM certification requirements actually reinforce this view, right down to the way in which people taking the test are obliged to repeat certain things exactly as they're played on recordings.

[e2c]

The problem here isn't Mamady, the problem are people with little artistic aptitude who approach Mandingue music as if it were some sort of engineering displine…

My thought is that it's not "little artistic aptitude," but "little experience at music," though both can certainly co-exist at the same time.

Which makes it that much harder for any teacher (of any kind of music) to get their point across.

And some people just do have a mechanical approach to music, no matter what kind of music they're learning/playing.

I think a lot of a good teacher's task is in having to undo a lot of misconceptions that people have had inculcated in them, sometimes in an almost brutally reductive way. Which isn't their fault!

[Djembe-nerd]

Great points and view.

I for one, am very happy for not falling in that catagory I still don;t know many parts to various rhythyms but don;t feel the vacum of music when I hear a new rhythym. I have seen and played with people who are the "one way" players.

I went to a few drum circles and was actually disapointed. I have to yet find a good one on our area. Even the learning side of the WA rhythyms is suffering here. Thats why I am planning to attend the Mamady camp. I agree that he is not to blame for the "fundamentalist followers", its the followers. When I get a chance, I will go to every other teacher I can get my hands on to. The variation is so much in WA music and each has their own style, and you learn a part of that , if you can. If you are not focused on 4 x 4 repetetions. I like Famudou, Sonugalo, and Mamdy for the melody in the music, not filling the entire rhythyms with slaps and tones at a fast speed.

I like the freedom that WA music gives you while remaning within the stricture of the rhythym. That was one of the reason that attracted me to this music. Its similar to Indian classical vocal music, the freedom within the structure thing. And I like to be free, cos its brings creativity.

[Carl]

Wow, lot's to respond to here...

I will start with the drum circle element.

I started out by going to drum circles, and I have facilitated quite a few back in the day. A drum circle is a very unique artistic event. It attempts to be egalitarian by letting anyone in, and all skill levels grind together to try and figure out some artistic statement. On the plus side it is a very "safe" place to explore music. At a 'good' drum circle people are not judged on how well they play, they are supported for participating at all.

However, as pointed out above, because there is no structure, the end result is usually more interesting to the participants than for an outside observer. Most space is filled in, and the timbres are all mixed at once, usually with little or no thought to layering or texture... A "facilitated" drum circle can correct for these tendencies, but at the cost of limiting the freedom of the participants.

Ok, for this next bit I am going to enter the "elitists" world for a while...

What I have observed is that for some people, as they explore the world of drumming, they end up taking some instrument "seriously" and begin to study the traditions and music of the culture which created the instrument (this could be congas, frame drums, Mid-east percussion, whatever). Once they have started down that road, they eventually "outgrow" going to drum circles. The lack of structure leaves little space for the "voice" of the tradition that they are studying. For example, Imagine spending a few years learning to play the Tar (a large frame drum) then go to a drum circle which consists of the 90% djembes mentioned in the article. I would imagine that you would come out of it with very little respect for djembes or drum circles in general. (on the other hand, given the right set of mics and amplification equipment, I think tar, djembe and tabla would be an interesting combination!)

[gets off high horse]

I think, in the best of worlds, that drum circles are great opportunities for people to explore music. I also think that, by their nature, they are a stepping stone to learning percussion, but they are not a particularly good tool for learning percussion (of any instrument).

I have been teaching adults to play djembe for just over 10 years now, one of the biggest problems I have is helping them become "bad" djembe players so that they can become "good" djembe players. What I mean here is that adult learners often have a problem making "mistakes". If you think about it, it does make sense. At a job, a mistake is a problem and could possibly get you fired! However in a pure learning environment, making mistakes is a critical part of self assessment and tells you where to focus your attention. To that end, drum circles can play a critical roll in an adult being able to start "serious study" on an instrument outside of said circle. Having a safe place to play "whatever they want" without worrying about handing, microtiming or lining up with the sangba gives them an opportunity to have fun playing without the added stress of "being right".

As far as the authors view of djembe students overrunning a drum circle...

To a large degree I think that he is correct in his criticism. I tell my students to be very careful about "teaching" parts at a drum circle. I personally believe that to do so would be disrespectful of both the music being taught and to the intention of drum circles in general. Think of it this way, if two people came up to you and the first person said "I learned [insert traditional rhythm here] from teacher X would you like to join me?" and the other person said "I learned [insert traditional rhythm here] at a drum circle would you like to join me?" what would be your expectation from each player?

I have no problem with people "sneaking in" traditional parts to try and make them work in the drum circle context. But once the "judgment" element gets in there it becomes against the spirit of drum circles.

One last thing about drum circles before I start my next post on the next issue. The musical skill that is most suited to drum circles is "listening" the author of the articles hits on this a bit with his comment about music being about the space between the notes. (an often misunderstood concept in my experience) The only real quality that I can use when judging a drum circle is how well the participants are listening to each other. Now in some sense, listening is a very specific and quite advanced musical skill. Raw beginners can work on listening skills, but even the best players depend on listening for their livelihood. A good drum circle can approach a "Free improv" session. Where the players are more concerned with the overall sound of the group than their own personal contribution. A bad circle is just a bunch of speed egos trying to get in more notes than the next guy...

It's early and I left my coffee downstairs, so I'm sorry if this got a bit too rambling...

I'll go drink some coffee before my next post.

C

[michi]

I'll go drink some coffee before my next post.

Have you finished your coffee? I want to read the rest of this!

Michi

[Garvin]

Interesting article. On the one hand, you gotta hand it to the guy for really taking a lot of time to qualify his criticism. He didn't just post a two sentence statement. He thought about it, and has at least some background.

One thing I think he overlooked is the volume factor. I've been near drum circles before and there is literally no concept of dynamics, or space. Its a whack-fest 99% of the time, and whoever can play louder obviously has the bigger balls. You are not going to be able to hear yourself play on congas, or treshi, or frame drums at a drum circle. Dunduns... maybe. But the djembe is a loud ass drum, even when played incorrectly (especially if played with sticks yikes!). I suppose the only drum louder would be a sabar. That'd certainly freak people out...

I also kind of detect a similar thread of resentment against people who've put their time in on the instrument here. Yes, I agree drum circles are often square one for those who go on to actually learn about these different styles of drumming. In my experience with jazz musicians there is kind of a similar divide. There are those who can kind of play the right sounds on their instrument, and maybe can even sight-read really well. But they have almost no ability to improvise. This comes from famililiarity with the music, and a true internalized understanding of the theory behind what you are playing. And of course a genuine feeling of expression, and love for the music.

Jazz has its Mamady's as well. Those who have in their own way codified the language, and laid a path before their students. They are great points of reference and guidance, and endless sources of debate, but ultimately it is up to the player to decide how far they want to go or what they want to get out of their own journey.

[bops]

Jazz has its Mamady's as well.

Wynton Marsalis?

It's early and I left my coffee downstairs, so I'm sorry if this got a bit too rambling...
I'll go drink some coffee before my next post.

I was guessing you were on your third cup already (?)

Some good points about studying with different teachers as opposed to just one. Here's an interesting take on that:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/chimamanda_adichie_the_danger_of_a_single_story.html

[Carl]

Ok, I posted this, went around the board a bit, when I came back it looks like it didn't go through!

here it is again, I apologize if it ends up "double posting"

C

On "being right" and the "Mamady Method"

This one is a tough one for me for a couple of reasons...

My greatest difficulty is my location and economic condition. The nearest teacher that I respect is Moussa Traore. He is a great teacher and player, unfortunately he is about 1.5 hours from me and has been for the past 4 years (before that I did study with him occasionally, and I spent the better part of a year working with him just about once a week). Since then I just haven't been able to afford the time or money to make the trip on a regular basis!

This leaves me with a problem, I consider myself a serious student of the instrument, but I have limited resources to increase my knowledge.

With purchasing Mamady's book, CDs and videos I have access to over 60 rhythms and a great deal of cultural info. (I have many other books on Mande culture, but I am leaving that out for the sake of argument) I can then save up to see Mamady about once a year and fill in the details that are lost when the music is transcribed or put on CD (DVD). I then only have to schedule one long weekend a year and still have more than enough to work on the rest of the year.

The major down side is that I end up getting only one perspective on a very complex musical world. The up side is that I have a very structured way of approaching the music "on my own".

Ok, this next part is where things get messy...

"being right"

Everyone wants to be right... one way or the other. Any student of any subject, at the very least, does not want to waste time learning something that they will have to re-learn later. This brings in various biases depending on individual learning situations.

I've noticed two conflicting forces in this particular issue.

Force #1 - Tradition.

It is pretty well know that the djembe is a "Traditional" instrument (note the capital "T") To that end, people learn rhythms that they are told are appropriate for this event, but not appropriate for that event. That this Sangba part "IS" the sangba part for the rhythm named "whatever".

On this site, people often correct each other when they mis-name a rhythm. The masters themselves lament the fact that much information out there is wrong and they work very hard at making sure the right information is out there.

Force #2 - regional variations

I've been fighting with this one for a while, and I feel like I am just beginning to understand how to deal with it...

For some rhythms there are various versions that I would call "correct" under the right circumstances (the sangba part for "wassolon-soli" is not the same as the sangba part for "soli-des-manian") Yet, they are both "soli" rhythms. There are other rhythms that I have been told are "incorrect" and that I wouldn't use under that name (I'm thinking specifically of what I would call the "American Kakilambe")

For beginner students of the djembe, these two forces can be quite confusing. Add to that the fact that there are people who are teaching "traditional" music with no real knowledge of the tradition to begin with!

Mamady is one of the most respected djembefolas out there. As e2c points out above, this is both a blessing and a curse. On the up side, I feel confident that I do not need to feel embarrassed if someone "corrects" me for playing something that Mamady taught. On the other hand, I go to great lengths to respect people who have learned from teachers that I have never heard of. (and therefore have no basis to judge their authenticity) and to be clear, I do my best to respect anyone who has an opinion of what is right or wrong (or indifferent) as to how the music should go etc.

Now the down side. There is a big gulf between not being embarrassed for believing Mamady and thinking that Mamady is the be-all end-all of djembe knowledge. Unfortunately this is a rather easy thing to do when one get's too attached to "being right". Mamady's system is broad in some areas, and deep in others. This is a good thing. And I feel that it is not particularly disrespectful to the tradition to focus on only one teacher for your own individual training. However, to focus on one teacher to the exclusion of all others is a very dangerous path. This is true of any area of learning.

I feel there is a process to learning any art. You begin with learning the fundamental vocabulary of the art, how to mix colors for paining, how to produce sounds on an instrument, how to begin speaking in your medium of choice. Then there is a time of imitation, where you take on other peoples "voice" in your art, figure out how they did things and why. After you have learned from your history by imitating a few of the "masters" you begin to find your own voice and start creating "something new".

It is easy to criticize someone for sounding "just like" whatever school of music that they study. I think that criticism is only justified if said person has chosen not to add anything new to their playing. Please keep in mind that this is relative, some people need to imitate for longer times than others.

In closing, I feel the need to ask a question that I posted quite a while ago...

What do you do with the cultural information that you have learned?

If you separate the music from tradition, you are left with only a pile of cool rhythmic combinations. Yet, as westerners, very few of us have the opportunity to see a soli festival, better yet actually participate as a musician.

Ugh... Ok, I think I used up my word count for the month (that and I do have other things to get done today!)

Thanks for a stimulating conversation, and I look forward to seeing where this goes from here.

C