should gays be drumming and dancing?

[ubba]

Should Gay people be drumming? I was looking over djembefola.com when I came across one of the discussions, “should white people be drumming and dancing”, I was momentarily stunned but after reading some of the responses it made me think, not only was the question in my mind absurd at first but it brought up feelings of hate that I have dealt with all of my life as a Gay man.

Should African’s be singing opera, should Chinese be playing the bodhran and on my mind went with a resounding yes to each question that came to mind. Life is very precious and very short for humans on this planet, humans are frail in the animal kingdom and we’re quite lucky to live a long and healthy life, what a shame if that life is filled with fear, hate or feelings of superiority…what a shame if we stopped ourselves from drumming because some felt we did not have the right. We are all guilty of pride or hatred at some points in our life but it is our strength as humans to fight against those feelings and find resolution. Racism is still alive and well in the United States but hopefully not as bad as it was years ago, it is and will continue to be a problem that needs great minds and thoughtful solutions as time goes on.

It was not long ago that the Irish were a hated minority in this country, they were called, Blacks turned inside out while Blacks were called smoked Irish, there were many derogatory words for the Irish but safe to say they were thought of as stupid, useless, less than human potato eating drunks and there were places that hung signs, “No Irish allowed“. What an opportunity was lost, the Irish could have been a bridge for race relations but when they finally won a hard and long battle to sit at the table of power they turned their backs on others with the same plight and began to become good little consumers. Gays are fighting a world wide battle against hate every moment of our lives and while many think they have won too many “special rights”, few know of our internal and external battles or even care. Should gays be Christians is a question I have often asked myself and it wasn’t until just recently that I could even entertain this question in my mind…I’ve come a long way baby. I am realizing that we are all human first and that was a hard one for me, “defense of marriage act” comes to mind in recent U.S. history. As a young man in Chicago I heard one of my elected officials give a speech where he denounced homosexuality, calling it an abomination, there were mothers with baby carriages holding signs of hate against me…I never forgot this and it made me partly who I am today.

As a gay man I have been attacked with a martial arts weapon known as a nunchaku, two sections of wood connected by a cord or chain, very deadly indeed. A group of us “gays” were out talking one nice summer evening in our own neighborhood when a car full of men pulled up yelling anti-gay epithets, when they got out of their car with weapons running towards us we all ran but I got caught on the lip, covered with blood I ran home to get my Irish Stick but my friends held me down and took me to the emergency room of the local hospital to be stitched up. Another time a few years later a man yelled at me, “you fucking faggot, what are you looking at”, he got in his car and down the street ran me over with his car, I spent the next year recuperating from that attack. When I lived in Chicago as a young gay man the Chicago police would raid our bars and neighborhoods making us lay on the floor calling us faggots, it took an Irish woman elected mayor of Chicago to finally put an end to the raids. A friend of mine was shot by a man calling him a faggot and later died from his wounds, I could go on and on but I doubt a lot will be listening much to me because after all, I’m just a dumb Irish American Faggot. I looked up gay derogatory slurs as I have heard many of them in my life and the list was a very long one indeed.

Did you know that in Africa 2/3 of the countries make gay sex illegal and there are often heavy prison terms if caught, in many of the countries that do have laws that don’t strictly prohibit it, acceptance if futile. The jembe comes from West Africa and Muslim’s are the overwhelming majority, gays to date have not been welcomed with open arms in the majority of countries with Muslim majorities, so momentarily my mind said, “should I be drumming as a gay man, will my African teacher accept me if he knows I’m gay”. Well folks my moment is over, I know I’m hated all over the world equally so I decided to just say, “screw it, I love to drum, life is short and I want to enjoy it and baby I can’t stop the hate all on my own”.

Ah just a little info, there is not enough space to include all the ill will towards those of us that were born gay, it is not a choice to be hated and who in their right mind would chose to be gay knowing that they would be vilified…because we were born this way and it is our nature…it is naturally me and can not be changed. So I say to all, pick up your drum if it pleases you, if you are curious and I hope all are, find out a little about the history of your drum of choice and get to know the people that play them, maybe a friend will be had in the curiosity.


Senegal - In December 2008, the Senegalese government arrested nine men involved in providing HIV prevention, care and treatment services to the country's lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community.

The men were later sentenced to eight years in prison on charges of "membership of a criminal organization and engaging in acts against the order of nature", but in April 2009 an appeals court overturned this verdict.

Arrests for homosexual activity are not uncommon in Senegal; in August 2008 two men were arrested at their home in Dakar and charged with "homosexual marriage" and acts against the order of nature. According to rights groups, a total of 30 men were arrested on charges of homosexuality in 2009. 

Gambia - In May 2008, Gambian President Yahya Jammeh gave gay people 24 hours' notice to leave the country. He promised stricter laws on homosexuality than in Iran, and threatened to behead any gay people discovered in the country. Jammeh's statements were thought to have been in response to a number of Senegalese gay men fleeing across the border into Gambia to escape persecution in their own country.
A recent march by over a thousand Ghanian Muslims against “the growing activities of gays and lesbians” in this West-African country, could hamper initiatives that target Men having sex with Men (MSM), such as HIV and Aids interventions, activists have warned.

[michi]

Should gays be drumming and dancing?

Mamady says "The djembe has no boundaries."

Michi.

[rachelnguyen]

Yup. I am with Michi. Yes.

[e2c]

Why not? I think there already are a fair number of LGBTQ folks playing drums, and dancing, too. (Though from what I understand, there are widely varying levels of acceptance for out gay folks in US drum and dance circles.)

But... music and dance are for everyone. (As Mamady, michi and rachel states so clearly, just above my post.)

[bubudi]

I was looking over djembefola.com when I came across one of the discussions, “should white people be drumming and dancing”, I was momentarily stunned but after reading some of the responses it made me think, not only was the question in my mind absurd at first but it brought up feelings of hate that I have dealt with all of my life as a Gay man.

let me just address this point first. the 'should white people be drumming and dancing' thread was sparked by an article in an african american newsletter. it was simply put up for discussion if there was any merit in the views held by the series of articles (3 articles in total) in that publication.

the question being asked in this thread, 'should gays be drumming and dancing' is both similar and different. similar because it's about activities that are supposed to break down boundaries, that are supposed to include people from all walks of life. different because the history and experience of african american people are different from those of gay people. i will refer you to my comments in the other thread for further explanation.

i couldn't begin to understand the experience of being gay so i can't comment much other than to say i'm not surprised by the discrimination, violence, hatred and abuse that is perpetrated towards gay people in america. people think of america as such a progressive country. wasn't gay marriage first legalized there? in actual fact it's quite a conservative country. as of yesterday australia has a female prime minister. england had one back in the 80s. israel had one back in 1969. seems as though america is 40 years behind.

you mention senegal's denunciation of gay activity (which is the same all over west africa). yet, the masters are always preaching that djembe has no boundaries (including abdoulaye diakite from senegal).

“screw it, I love to drum, life is short...”

that's pretty much what i tell my students when they doubt themselves or whether they should be drumming or when they feel their neighbours, friends or spouses are against their drumming. we have a 'djembefolettes' thread where, among other things, the question of why so few women ever play the djembe in west africa was posed. in the end it was agreed it's about cultural norms, not about spiritual taboos or social control. africans cling to their cultural norms and social views just as americans cling to theirs.

[Paul]

as of yesterday australia has a female prime minister. england had one back in the 80s. israel had one back in 1969. seems as though america is 40 years behind.

I really dont think Mags Tatcher is helping the argument, especially for the Irish... I am not totally up to date on info on Golda Meir, but I find it hard to put any Israeli head of state in the progressive box.

[Paul]

Sorry back to the point.. Go or it Ubba... and potatoes and beer Rock!!

[e2c]

@ bubudi: no offense, but there is a *lot* of discrimination against LGBTQ people in the US.

Google "Prop. 8" and see what you get...

There are far more similarities (imo) between racism and anti-gay sentiment than might be apparent to you, in Aus, at first blush. (Aus. gets taken to task here by many anti-gay pundits for its supposedly permissive and lax attitude toward gay people...)

[kristen]

It's really upsetting that a culture has the power to dictate what someone can and cannot do, based on their skin color or sexual orientation. I wish everyone put more time into treating people like human beings, rather than picking apart what they can and cannot do. I say, do whatever it is that makes you come alive inside. That's what this world needs, people who are full of joy, love and passion. Let your joy be your guide.

[bubudi]

@ bubudi: no offense, but there is a *lot* of discrimination against LGBTQ people in the US.

did i say any different?

(Aus. gets taken to task here by many anti-gay pundits for its supposedly permissive and lax attitude toward gay people...)

that depends on which angle you are looking. from a legislative point of view, australia prides itself as being quite accepting of all kinds of diversity, although it still has a long way to go. fat chance of permitting gay marriage for the time being... as for the incidence of violence towards gay people, there is a beach in sydney where gangs of gay-bashers hang out looking for gay people to beat up...or whoever looks 'gay' to them. there are probably lots of other spots i don't know about. rural australia represents 27% of australians and from what i've seen and heard, gay people are certainly not welcome there.

the main difference between the issue of whites drumming and gay people is that with the former we are talking about a perception among some black americans about white (and other non-black) people appropriating yet another aspect of their culture, after all the other hardships they've copped during the generations. that perception is driven by their experience (passed on through generations) of invasion, colonialisation, slavery, xenophobia, hatred, segregation, violence... the list goes on. whereas i believe the latter is a question about whether gay people are any less entitled to drum than any other group...

[bubudi]

I really dont think Mags Tatcher is helping the argument, especially for the Irish... I am not totally up to date on info on Golda Meir, but I find it hard to put any Israeli head of state in the progressive box.

haha you don't have to like margaret thatcher or israel, i mentioned this only to illustrate the point that america is not as progressive as many would believe it to be. it might surprise you that new zealand was the first country to allow women to vote (1893). australia followed 9 years later, then the rest of the world. in usa women couldn't vote until 1920.

[e2c]

... or Indira Gandhi. (or Sarah Palin!!!)

Seriously, I think some aspects of ubba's post don't "translate" easily for those who have never lived in the US. That very much includes the Civil Rights analogies implicit in the way many pro-LGBTQ rights folks tend to see things. (And - imo - more often than not, they're right, though - also imo - it's not an exact 1:1 correspondence.)

An example of the kind of prejudiced "commentary" on the issue found in the more conservative American press/media: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/201 ... -52.0.html

(I wish a mag. with a name like "Christianity Today" wasn't publishing this stuff... am Christian myself, but not from this "wing" of the American church.)

As for conservatives here fulminating about Aus. being too "nice" to gay people, I think their understanding of Aussie society is pretty limited. Their arguments seem like the proverbial straw man to me.

[bops]

i couldn't begin to understand the experience of being gay so i can't comment much other than to say i'm not surprised by the discrimination, violence, hatred and abuse that is perpetrated towards gay people in america. people think of america as such a progressive country. wasn't gay marriage first legalized there? in actual fact it's quite a conservative country. as of yesterday australia has a female prime minister. england had one back in the 80s. israel had one back in 1969. seems as though america is 40 years behind.

OK bubudi, call us conservative if you want, but at least make a convincing argument. Congrats to Australia for electing a female head of state, but it doesn't necessarily make it a more progressive society. You got nothing on Iceland. Definitely not the case with Israel. Seriously though, the next time you're about to give your purely subjective opinion, try not to refer to it as an "actual fact"... it detracts from your credibility.

As an American and a progressive, I can tell you that the U.S. is a deeply divided country. The division is distinct and stubborn between North and South. The populace is large, and can't be easily described as conservative or progressive. The governing body is corrupt in ways that are not easily detectable. Corporate lobbying has resulted in a breakdown in the system of checks and balances intended to regulate the legislative and judicial process. Like in most places, the central issue to the electorate is the economy. Gay rights has been a hot-button issue over the years, but general acceptance of gays in society has steadily increased in recent years.

BTW, happy belated pride weekend Ubba. I personally don't see the purpose of posing the question you're posing. I don't mean that in an offensive way, but rather like you yourself said, "what a shame if we stopped ourselves from drumming because some felt we did not have the right." Drum on with your bad selves.

[e2c]

Agreed - very much so - on "deeply divided." (My own personal take is that the US might be the most divided - almost fractured, in some ways - that it's been since the Civil War - i.e., 1860s.)

Sometimes I feel like there are parallel universes here, but I'd rather not get the discussion further off track than it already is...

Edited to add: I'm not sure that we can accurately gauge things by when the 1st woman was elected as head of state in various countries. What those women actually did (or are doing) while in office is where the rubber hits the road.

And - though I totally disagree with almost all of her policies - we did just have an African American woman as secretary of state (Condoleeza Rice). We currently have Hillary Clinton in the post... and we had Madeleine Albright in the post during Bill Clinton's term in office. So, three almost consecutive appointments of women to that post, which is a very important one. (Colin Powell being the "odd man out" - yet also being the 1st African American man appointed to the post.)

[bubudi]

yes, and let's not forget obama.

i apologise if i offended anyone with my comment on america being less progressive than the world may think. i was simply making an observation, from my viewpoint, of course. it's a relative comment, not to be taken as polar (i.e. i was not labeling america as conservative, but rather, observing that it is not as progressive as one may think). i thought it was clear in my post, but reading back i did use the phrase 'in actual fact', although i also said 'seems as though...' nevertheless i was giving only one example of how america may not be as progressive in relation to other countries. i could give other examples, but i think we're way off topic as it is.

@bops, i was not waving the australian flag either, nor was i trying to say that 'we' are better than any other country. us aussies are far less patriotic than you americans