Great non-African bands

[James]

Coming at us from Italia:
‎Babara Bangoura and Bemankan

[Mikeleza]

This is awesome!

[James]

Duga, Duga, Dugafola,

How did you keep this a secret:

One of my favourite videos ever!!!

[Afoba]

nice one - what rhythms? d;-)

what we can see here again is the problems to mix traditional music (well it's not that traditional) and modern dance.
The solo player always plays the break/signal/blocage in the first of two rhythm cycles (as I would do, and as upper guinean drummers would do). But the girls (very cool, BTW) don't respect the little intermission, the little pause after. They start directly after the blocage each time and the solo player follows. So after each blocage the rhythm structure is turned and a new first of two cycles is created (each solo part goes over 7, 9, 11 or 13 cycles that way).
I had many discussion concerning this with (female) dancers here - it's very hard to explain them to make a pause to respect the music (try to do this on a longer Dibon: it would be against the melody every second time), because they have learned ballet style only, where this is not respected. Pity!
That's what makes the mixture of westafrican dance and traditional music in western countries so hard - it doesn't really fit to each other.
It's cool for this video, becuase they don't care so much about traditional music, the dance show is much more important here, and it's very close to CKY ballets. But it explains the difficulties of bringing together dance and traditional music in western countries quite well.

Greetings from the tradition section d;-)

[e2c]

Daniel, I do see what you are saying and appreciate all your points... but I think it's really hard for people who have never been part of traditional festivals to understand what you are trying to say about the pauses, etc.

And for the stage, it's just a *lot* easier to have the fluidity and segues from one dance to another. I think the kinds of pauses you're talking about can be worked in, but it will take a lot of very subtle things in terms of co-ordination between dancers (including the choreographer for any stage presentation) and the drummers.

this might be a silly question, but have you spent much time dancing/learning dances? (I'm not a dancer, but I know there is a whole different perspective that comes from the integration of the music and dance, from the dancers' side.)

* btw, I am sure you have taken these things into consideration in your reply (above), but still... have you tried having the dancers stand near the drums and just get a feel for the music, without any movement?

[Mikeleza]

... and so another debate begins!

Daniel... I think its a really great thing that you point out here and I have often wondered about this concept myself.

Some may call it pedantic but I think it's little things like this that make the difference sometimes.

I am no expert like you but I think it seems to be a pretty common thing for songs and dance to not respect the exact form of drum song... I was so surprised to hear that the song for KAWA on Fadouba's cd is in a six beat cycle which creates a large polymeter crossing the 8 beat cycle of the drums. These cross rhythms create a trance like feeling and I think the same thing happens here with the dancers, the new cycles created by the dancer and soloist make the drum pattern sound as though its never repeating itself... thats part of the reason why this has a trance effect I suppose.

Mike

[Afoba]

Hello e2c and Mike!

Daniel, I do see what you are saying and appreciate all your points... but I think it's really hard for people who have never been part of traditional festivals to understand what you are trying to say about the pauses, etc.

I didn't say it's easy to understand. But have a look at the video: They have put a lot of work into it! The thing is that nearly no one puts some work into traditional styles or into developing dance styles hat would do with traditional music. It's not the fault of the dancers (in general, I'm not talking about this video, which would have been a good example for the "should white people drum and dance"-thread), it's the system that has taken this path and it's very hard indeed to act (no, not again) BESIDE the system.

have you spent much time dancing/learning dances? (I'm not a dancer, but I know there is a whole different perspective that comes from the integration of the music and dance, from the dancers' side.)

What means much time? d;-) I dance regularily, when I'm in Upper Guinea and sometimes here in Germany. I wouldn't say I'm a good dancer. But I know quite well how drumming and dancing works together. And it happened more than one time that I wasn't the worst dundunba dancer during a fête in Hamana. I have recently given a simple dance class to some of my drumming students: for the fun and for the understanding of djembe and dundun music. And we are dancing a lot at my fêtes in Freiburg, that I organize twice a year.

Baro, 2008:


I got most personal experience with dance (that's to say in Upper Guinea I have danced most) on Dundunba, Soli, Soliba/Balakilandyan, Kassa, Soro, Konden, Mendiani (indeed d;-) ), Tasaba and Dyidanba (not complete).

The different perspective due to the integration of music and dance is my principal perspective. I love to make music where people can dance to, and I love dances that do influence the music (of course), but do not change the music's nature. But maybe you are talking about the perspective of dancers, who don't have both perspectives, because they haven't been to traditional fêtes or/and have only had input (teachers) of the other, the modern, the pan-gloal "major" system?
I would beg you to explain that. As I told you, I know that it's very hard for people, if you tell them "well, what you do is really cool, but it won't work on my music" (since they have always been told it's african dance, and african dance has to fit to african music). But don't you think it's still better to be honest and to explain, what is different? I could read such a "don't let us speak about it" - reaction from your text. And - I admit - I had a band some years before, where this basic aspect (Hi Mike! It's not "little things", it's THE MUSIC!) has never been discussed deeply enough. So this was my and our fault for a long time as well.
Little example: try to play a traditional dundungbè/kon and let some people who have learnt steps on it in Conakry dance on it: Well, some discussion would be needed.

Mike, there is a huge difference between songs (which can be placed this way or that way) and dancing. When you play Famoudou's second Kassa (Mansa's N'Kokè, Mamady's Kassa Soro), the singing can start at two points (In some cases - Sofa - the second singing cycle even starts on the "three", not one the "one"). But the dancing has to be placed on the 8 beat dundun cycle correctly. Or (as for some Soli or Mendiani parts) the drums have to follow the dance in exactly one way.

I don't say this is easy. It's a whole musical world. And when we are talking about drumming and dancing I think it's important to say honestly what fits (and works) and what doesn't.

As I said before (I think): This "pause" is not absolute. There are situations in Soli, Dyidanba and others, where it's not respected. You can "cut" it, as I call it. But in most cases it's there, and it gives a clearer understanding to learn things with the pause and to cut it later than to say "normally I go on directly, and sometimes I wait a bit".

I hope I made my point clear.
Greetings and best wishes to both of you,
Daniel

[EvanP]

Daniel,
As with the first time I heard W. African music, there is something in this discussion that I find fascinating and worthwhile, but I just can't comprehend the essence.

The solo player always plays the break/signal/blocage in the first of two rhythm cycles (as I would do, and as upper guinean drummers would do). But the girls (very cool, BTW) don't respect the little intermission, the little pause after. They start directly after the blocage each time and the solo player follows. So after each blocage the rhythm structure is turned and a new first of two cycles is created (each solo part goes over 7, 9, 11 or 13 cycles that way).

Even after reading the thread three times and watching both videos multiple times I'm baffled. I think this is really important, and interesting, but I'm wondering if it would be possible to somehow annotate a video showing "the little pause after"? I'm just not getting the difference. I certainly don't see "respect for the little intermission" in the video from Guinea--it seems to be just a chaotic changing of dancers between solos.

Sorry if this is a dumb request, but I'm really trying to understand.

Evan

[Mikeleza]

Evan,

Its not a dumb question at all... I think I understand it but I can't be sure!!

I understood it like this...

If you can imagine the dancers are doing clean cycles of steps which fit the drum song... (natural... no problem!)
...but if the soloist keeps doing the calls on the first part of these cycles and the length of the call does not match the entire length of the drum song, you get an extra bar which means the dancers BEGIN their dance step in the MIDDLE of the drum song somewhere NOT at the BEGINNING. In effect the dancers are creating a polymeter pattern over the drum song which doesn't match and is not traditional in Daniels eyes.

Am I on the right track Daniel?

Mike

[Mikeleza]

Oh and I think Afoba is referring to the amazing dancers playing with the amazing Italian group in the first video!?

Mike

[e2c]

Daniel -

The different perspective due to the integration of music and dance is my principal perspective. I love to make music where people can dance to, and I love dances that do influence the music (of course), but do not change the music's nature. But maybe you are talking about the perspective of dancers, who don't have both perspectives, because they haven't been to traditional fêtes or/and have only had input (teachers) of the other, the modern, the pan-gloal "major" system?

Yes, this is exactly what I meant, and tried to say in my post above. My apologies if that was not clear.

Edited to add: I said

but I think it's really hard for people who have never been part of traditional festivals to understand what you are trying to say about the pauses, etc.

above.

Best!
e.

[davidognomo]

konkoba
djole
liberté 1 & soli
bao

so, this is a portuguese band. they are starting now, trying to get gigs, and spread the mande in Portugal. The guy with the hood on the head was my teacher for the last year. Feel free to comment, I think they'll appreciate some opinions.

[djembefeeling]

Feel free to comment, I think they'll appreciate some opinions.

o.k., here is my opinion: locations and outfit -- well done. These guys create a very masculine atmosphere. technical skills are advanced for the most part, I think. At least, the djembe players are more advanced than I am. There is some arrangement in every rhythm that is good for the stage.

And yet, I am by no means touched by this group. Perhaps it is due to the recording that I hardly can hear the melody of the duns, the recordings are not well balanced. Or is it because I do not like any of the composite bass melodies? The videos sound sterile and look static to me. Is the group really tight? I do not feel the groove here. The phrases are mostly ballet style, but with lots of pauses. Reminds me a bit of Mamady Keita, but while he sounds awesome, these guys cannot transport any of his qualities to me as part of the audience. Instead of playing impressive phrases at the limits of their technical skills, I would prefer some simple but beautiful solophrases and some more attention to the groove, 'cause it ain't mean a thing if it ain't got that...

[bkidd]

Hi David,

Thanks for posting the videos. What's interesting is that they play 5 different rhythms, yet they feel all the same, which is basically frantic. I agree with djembefeeling that something is odd with the sound balance. The dununs out number the djembes 7:2 and yet the djembes stand out so much more as the dunun melody is lost. Are the silver colored dununs metal or just painted?

These guys are definitely working it though and put out a lot of energy that might translate better to a live audience. I wish them luck in finding gigs.

Cheers,
-Brian

[davidognomo]

The silver dununs are made of metal. That is due to the impossibility of finding dununs here in Portugal. I guess they thought it would be cheaper to make these metal duns than to order some via internet.

Well, I understand your opinions. And agree for the most part. I guess the challenge is to see where does it go from now.

Thanks for the feedback.