Alternative to Zoom and Olympus recorders

[michi]

During the discussion about the Zoom H2, Olympus LS-10, and Olympus LS-11, I browsed around some more. Turns out that Sony now offers the PCM-M10 recorder that, at least by the reviews, seems to be at least as good as the LS-11 at a lower price. The Sony can record in MP3 as well as WAV format (previous models only did WAV), and it has an unbelievable 43-hour battery life.

Wingfield Audio wrote a very favourable review of the PCM-M10.

It's currently available on Amazon for $275 compared to $330 for the LS-11. I haven't done a precise feature comparison but it looks like it's a direct competitor to the LS-11 at a lower price. Looks like it should be on the list of options if you are in the market for a high-quality portable recorder.

Cheers,

Michi.

[bubudi]

that one is also a very fine recorder and it has gone down in price quite a bit. the unit is not as compact as the olympus models, but otherwise is a great package.

[Djembe-nerd]

Hmmmmm

Here is what I found out reading reviews, combined comments for M10, Ls 10. Ls 11.

Sony M10
- Has micro SD/memory stick micro slot.
- - 5 second prerecord buffer
- long battery life ( 43 hours)
- Same software features as PCM D 50

LS 10 /Ls 11
- LS-11 also delivers where the LS-10 somewhat failed: low frequencies, so no more bass roll off which makes it now a fully great sounding and well built recorder for music, nature, and speech.
- LS-11 seems to have slightly better clarity when recording from the internal mics than the M10
- Sound of the LS-10 was thin, good for speech, music had to be equalized.
- Sound of the LS-11 is full and has wonderful bass, but is also nice in the highs, both from internal mics, and mic-in. music doesn't have to be post processed. It's the deciding difference to the LS-10.
- Oly uses SDHC instead of microSD.
- Battery life of the LS-11 is more than good enough, 19 hours - 23 hours claimed
- Startup time is short: 2 sec with 8GB internal RAM and 4 GB SDHC.

[bops]

That's a slick unit - very nice set of features, and 43 hours of battery life is incredible. It also includes Sound Forge Audio Studio, which is a nice piece of editing software.

Looks like B&H has it for $275 also, but they're including this padded hard case:

[Djembe-nerd]

This is the frequency respose of LS 11

Recording Mode Overall Frequency Response
96 kHz 20 Hz to 44 kHz
88.2 kHz 20 Hz to 42 kHz
48 kHz 20 Hz to 23 kHz
44.1 kHz 20 Hz to 21 kHz
44.1 kHz/mono 20 Hz to 21 kHz

MP3
Recording Mode Overall Frequency Response
320 kbps 50 Hz to 20 kHz
256 kbps 50 Hz to 20 kHz
128 kbps 50 Hz to 17 kHz
mono 50 Hz to 17 kHz

WMA
Recording Mode Overall Frequency Response
160 kbps 50 Hz to 19 kHz
128 kbps 50 Hz to 19 kHz
64 kbps 50 Hz to 15 kHz
mono 50 Hz to 15 kHz

The one for the PCM M10 is similar to LS 11 but they only give one values, I suppose they are for PCM ( I couldn't attach the file as it was 3 Mb and only 2 Mb upload is allowed), I couldn't find the values for MP3

Here is the link\

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/file ... _A1178.pdf

[michi]

I found another fairly detailed review of the PCM-M10. Some features that I think are truly useful:

• 4GB of built-in memory. Chances are that you will never need to use an additional card for more memory.
• Built-in speaker
• A-B repeat
• Variable speed control (-75% - +100%). That one is truly useful for learning fast phrases.
• Automatic level control that reduces the recording level when things get loud but, once reduced, doesn't increase the level again. This avoids the pumping you get with automatic gain control. Basically, to make a decent recording, switch it on, have everyone hit their drums a few times, and you are set.
• Wired remote control (included).

One down-side: MP3 recording is possible only in 64kbit (useless), 128kbit (poor), and 320kbit (very good) quality. There is no 256kbit setting (which I would prefer) and there is no variable bit rate setting (which I consider ideal). So, if you don't want to blow tons on memory on LPCM (CD-quality) recording, you end up having to use 320kbit MP3, which has excellent quality, but consumes about 1/3 more memory than VBR MP3.

Judging by the manual, the navigation features for playback are actually usable. That's a big point for me because, with the H2, playback navigation is so rudimentary as to be non-existent. (It's pragmatically impossible to find, say, a specific section 20 minutes into a 40-minute recording.) The reviews indicate that playback sound level is also good (which is another weak point of the H2). It looks like the PCM-M10 actually makes a decent music player as well as a decent recorder, which is a definite advantage.

It looks like it's impossible to rename files or folders without a computer. The H2 can do this but then, the feature is so awkward to use that I've never bothered, so I don't see that as a major disadvantage.

Here is a link to the user manual for the PCM-M10.

Adam, your posts seem to indicate that you think the LS-11 is better in terms of recording quality?

To me, the Sony looks like a hot unit right now. I'll try and track down more reviews. I'm particularly interested in any info on recording very high volume levels (>105dB), which is one of the weak points of the H2. If the PCM-M10 can do that, it looks like it would be just about perfect.

Cheers,

Michi.

[Djembe-nerd]

Adam, your posts seem to indicate that you think the LS-11 is better in terms of recording quality?

Actually no, I was just posting the frequency responses for LS 11 and sony. Now I saw in the manual they are the same for both. I agree with you that sony PCM M10 looks a better deal.

However, The Mp3 recording mode frequency response for both is starting from 50 Hz as against 20 Hz in the 96Khz or 44 KHz in the PCM mode. Does this mean that the dununba's will be clipped in the MP3 recording a little bit.

I say this cos the SM57 has a minimum frequency of 40 Hz, where as the Beta 52 A (mic for the kick drum) has a minimum frequency of 20 Hz to catch the low frequencies.

[bops]

One down-side: MP3 recording is possible only in 64kbit (useless), 128kbit (poor), and 320kbit (very good) quality. There is no 256kbit setting (which I would prefer) and there is no variable bit rate setting (which I consider ideal). So, if you don't want to blow tons on memory on LPCM (CD-quality) recording, you end up having to use 320kbit MP3, which has excellent quality, but consumes about 1/3 more memory than VBR MP3.

I see your point about the lack of 256k - that would be nice. But I wouldn't call 64k useless. It's fine for vocal-only recording, such as interviews, etc. A lot of consumers would use this type of device for vocal recording. I don't see VBR as giving you a huge advantage, to be honest, especially with 4+ GB of storage.

The variable speed control and automatic level control are awesome features.

However, The Mp3 recording mode frequency response for both is starting from 50 Hz as against 20 Hz in the 96Khz or 44 KHz in the PCM mode. Does this mean that the dununba's will be clipped in the MP3 recording a little bit.

"Clipped" suggests too high a signal, so no. But if you mean that the mp3s will not pick up the dununba as well due to the frequency response starting at 40Hz, then no again. Anything lower than 40 Hz is a really low rumble. Your dununba probably peaks at about 80-200 Hz. In any case, if you're recording as MP3, then you're probably not using the recordings for anything other than study. If you need the highest possible recording quality, then you should be recording as PCM anyway.

[Djembe-nerd]

Thanks Bops, that was good information, so basically we do not need beta 52 a for the dununba's as I was assuming. SM 57 would do the job.

Do you know if the 4 or 8 gb micro SDHC cards are compatible with this recorder. The manual says micro SD card, but in AMazon I found micro SDHC card with adaptor.

[michi]

I agree with you that sony PCM M10 looks a better deal.

However, The Mp3 recording mode frequency response for both is starting from 50 Hz as against 20 Hz in the 96Khz or 44 KHz in the PCM mode.

Frequency response is pretty much meaningless. It is a function of the sampling frequency: the maximum frequency that a digital recording can reproduce is 1/2 the sampling rate. So, a 44.1kHz sampling rate means a 22.05kHz maximum frequency. (That's known as the Nyquist Limit in information theory.) Usually, CD recordings use a low-pass filter with a 20kHz cut-off because that's where human hearing ends, and it keeps the quantization noise further away from the cut-off, so the filter doesn't need to be as steep (which reduces filter artifacts).

For CD quality recording, frequencies below 20Hz are thrown away by a high-pass filter because that's where the range of human hearing ends. Moreover, go any lower, and you get something quite close to DC, which is murder on speaker coils.

MP3 throws away anything below 50Hz, and for good reason: most people cannot hear frequencies that low. If they can, they have good ears, are young, and they are listening at high volume level. Further, almost no reasonable speaker system can actually reproduce frequencies below 50Hz. To get that, you need speakers that are at least 1.5m tall, with bass drivers around 25-30cm in diameter. Speakers that get that kind of bass are most often transmission line designs that typically cost upwards of $5000 a pair. Moreover, even with such speakers, you need to listen to them in a room that's at least 10m on each side, otherwise these low frequencies become inaudible even if the speakers produce them due to acoustic short circuiting via reflections off the walls.

To put it bluntly, frequencies below 50Hz are meaningless unless you are young and listen to the music with a stereo system that most people cannot afford at very high volume levels, in a room that is larger than what is available to most people. The same is true for frequencies above around 17kHz: most people can't hear them. If you are over 30, chances are that you won't hear anything above that.

Does this mean that the dununba's will be clipped in the MP3 recording a little bit.

No, for the above reasons. You wouldn't hear those frequencies even if you had a stereo that could reproduce them.

Edited to add: It's also unlikely that the tiny microphone capsules can actually capture much below 50Hz. If you were to put the recorder into an anechoic chamber and run a frequency analysis, you'd most likely find a sharp drop-off below 50Hz, even at the highest-quality CD setting. To capture such low frequencies, you'd have to invest in better microphones.

Here is a cool stereo microphone, BTW:

Schoeps KFM 6 Microphone

kfm6.gif (9.88 KiB) Viewed 337 times

That one has a frequency response of 18Hz - 16kHz. You can buy it for a mere $8,880.00.

This one is also nice, with a frequency response of 40Hz - 20kHz:

Schoeps CMXY 4V Microphone

cmxy4Vu_1.gif (9.95 KiB) Viewed 337 times

It's a bargain at $5,550.00.

The point is that, by reading specification sheets, you won't get any real idea of what the thing sounds like. Companies lie all the time about their specs and, for things such as frequency response, use different measuring sticks. For example, 20Hz at -9dB is very different from 20Hz at -3db.

When you are looking at the extreme ends of the spectrum, the fact is that only insanely expensive gear can actually deliver.

Cheers,

Michi.

[michi]

I see your point about the lack of 256k - that would be nice. But I wouldn't call 64k useless. It's fine for vocal-only recording, such as interviews, etc.

Yes, I should have said "useless for music". 64kbit really doesn't cut it for music, and neither does 128kbit (unless you are very tolerant of artifacts).

A lot of consumers would use this type of device for vocal recording.

For lecture notes and such, yes, 64kbit is perfectly adequate. I wouldn't use it for high-quality voice recording though, such as for an audio book.

I don't see VBR as giving you a huge advantage, to be honest, especially with 4+ GB of storage.

Yes, the 4GB sort of save the day. At 320kbit/sec, that's around 27.5 hours, which is more than enough for most situations. With VBR, you would get approximately 40 hours.

The variable speed control and automatic level control are awesome features.

Yes, to me, those are killer features too.

Cheers,

Michi.

[bubudi]

128kbit is adequate for classes. for recording music i usually use pcm at highest bit rate. 256kbit would probably be a nice option, but i'd be using the other two settings more often. i agree that in both theory and practice the stated frequency response levels are quite meaningless. test the units out or read some good reviews before you buy.

the pcm-m10 is looking very good, thanks for all the info.

[michi]

128kbit is adequate for classes.

Yes.

for recording music i usually use pcm at highest bit rate.

Why not, if you have the memory. Although, most people cannot tell the difference between 320kbits/sec MP3 and CD quality, even with very high quality playback equipment so, unless you want to master CDs, the extra bits are probably mostly wasted.

256kbit would probably be a nice option

I love VBR because it reduces memory consumption without compromising quality. VBR turns out to be a max of 220kbit for most material because there simply isn't any additional information present in the source that would be audible. But, in quiet passages or monotonous passages, it can drop as low as 128kbit/sec without any loss in quality. So, depending on the material, effective bit rate can be well below 200kbit/sec, and it still sounds as good as 320kbit/sec constant bit rate.

But it really is all academic: memory is so cheap now that you might as well stop bothering and go for the high quality.

Cheers,

Michi.

[michi]

I'm particularly interested in any info on recording very high volume levels (>105dB), which is one of the weak points of the H2.

Just found another review of the PCM-M10. It quotes 123dB max sound pressure for the built-in microphones.

For reference, the pain threshold is 130dB. At 123dB, exposure for more than 15 seconds can lead to permanent hearing damage.

In other words, if the reported figure of 123dB is accurate, the microphones will easily handle even the loudest ensemble. This device is starting to look good!

Cheers,

Michi.

[bops]

Great explanation, thanks Michi.

I love VBR because it reduces memory consumption without compromising quality. VBR turns out to be a max of 220kbit for most material because there simply isn't any additional information present in the source that would be audible. But, in quiet passages or monotonous passages, it can drop as low as 128kbit/sec without any loss in quality. So, depending on the material, effective bit rate can be well below 200kbit/sec, and it still sounds as good as 320kbit/sec constant bit rate.

But this is also why I say that VBR won't make much difference - when you're recording mostly jembe music, and I have a sneaking suspicion that's what you're doing , there isn't much quiet or monotonous audio. During breaks, you can easily start/stop recording with the remote. Nonetheless, it would be a nice addition.

Hmm... gear lust.

BTW Those are some nice looking mics...and I thought Neumanns were the most expensive mics I'd ever seen.