Alternative to Zoom and Olympus recorders

[Djembe-nerd]

I will explain the positioning, The drummers were sitiing in a line starting left with DUnuns (ballet style) and going to the solo guy on the right.

The recorder was angled from where I could put it safetly. The left mic was pointing to the dununs , right was pointing to the soloist. I thought this way I will cover the area, although the mics are omni directional. About 10 feet from the dununs and 20 feet from the solo.

I like it , its small and easy to operate. I officailly thank the forum and the guys for a good discussion and choice

[Djembe-nerd]

While recording i notice that if I record only the djembe slap and tones (higher frequencies) i can put the recorder on auto or manual recording with high sensitivity.

But in the class, as soon as the dunun starts the recorder has to be put in manual and low sensitivity with a lot of control from the wheel.

If I put the low cut filter one will it help in cutting some lower frequencies, and help in increasing the sensitivity.

[bops]

I always record at low sensitivity with that type of device, when recording drums. The reason is, you can always increase the volume level once the audio has been recorded. If it's overdriven and distorted, though, there's little you can do to fix that.

[michi]

I received my recorder three days ago, so here are a few more first-hand observations:

• Recording quality is simply awesome. Amazing detail and extremely low noise floor.
• Stereo imaging isn't as sharp as with cardioid microphones, but the stereo you get feels natural and normal (none of the ping-pong stereo sound).
• Ease of use is outstanding. Most things can be achieved without ever entering the menu. And if you want to do something that requires the menu, things are easy to navigate to and select.
• The display is large enough for me with my 50-year-old eyes to read without reading glasses. For the Zoom H2, I had to use glasses because the display is smaller and has lower contrast.
• In manual recording mode, with the microphone sensitivity set to high, it's possible to record unbelievably quiet sounds. With the input gain all the way up, quietly breathing about 50cm away causes clipping. (The high sensitivity setting for the microphones also raises the noise floor but, still, if you want to record something ultra-quiet, you can do it.)
• Even quiet conversations can be recorded with the microphone setting on low. It has plenty enough sensitivity and results in a lower noise floor.
• The automatic recording feature works well. With four djembes and a dundun set, I could record from about 4m away in a lively room (read: too lively) without clipping. However, with 22 djembes and three dunduns (separate players) played loud, the automatic record feature couldn't handle the volume anymore. It appears that it will reduce the volume only so far, even if it detects clipping.
• Manual recording mode worked fine for me in the same situation, with the record level set at 2. I didn't have to switch on the limiter.
• Playback navigation is very good. It's easy to navigate to a specific section of a long recording quickly and precisely.
• The A-B mark feature works really well, as does the T-mark feature. (It's possible to set new marks in a recording after it was recorded, so you can set (up to 99) marks in a recording while it's playing back for later navigation. It's also possible to automatically split a file into separate files where the marks are.
• Start-up time is great: 4 seconds from power-on to ready to rock. I copied 3.6GB of music tracks onto the recorder (more than 300 songs) and the start-up time was the same 4 seconds. (This is a weak point with many recorders: the more files, the longer the start-up time. Or they are just plain slow: the Zoom H2 takes 20-30 seconds from power-on until it's ready. I've missed the start of a song more than once because of that.)
• Because the battery life is so great, you can leave the recorder on all day and still get five full 8-hour days out of it on one set of batteries. The 5-second pre-record buffer means that you don't miss the start of something even if you are little slow pressing the button.
• If you leave the recorder alone (without being in record-pause mode, it goes to sleep after 10 minutes. Press any button, and it wakes up instantaneously. Pressing any button on the remote also wakes up the recorder.
• Playback volume via headphones is more than loud enough (which is another weak point of the Zoom H2).
• The built-in speaker is not very loud and produces poor quality sound, about the same as an iPhone. But it works well for quickly checking some detail, such as a djembe accompaniment or dundun part.
• The variable-speed playback is truly useful (see below).

Overall, I can find very little that could be improved. Some minor nit-picks:

• The built-in memory (I didn't buy a MicroSD card) is not particularly fast. Copying files from recorder to my Mac Pro gave me 5MB per second (which is a far cry from the 40MB limit of USB 2.0). Copying in the other direction, from computer to recorder, is slower at 3.2MB per second.
• The wired remote does not permit adjusting the recording level. You can only start, stop, pause, and set marks.
• The wired remote has a 2m cable. A little longer would have been nice. (It's probably not easy finding an extension cord because, even though it uses a standard 3.5mm plug diameter, the plug has four contacts, not the normal three that you get with a stereo plug.)
• The Zoom H2 allows 90° as well as 120° stereo recording with its double pair of microphones (as well as permitting surround sound recording). With the Sony, you are limited to simple stereo.
• The Zoom H2 permits renaming of files (albeit only very awkwardly); the Sony doesn't.

The variable speed control works really well. Here is a short clip of Mamady's Wassolonka solo original at it's normal speed of 120bpm:

Wassolonka (120bpm).mp3

Wassolonka solo phrase at 120bpm

(484.62 KiB) Downloaded 52 times

Here is the same clip slowed down by 30%:

Wassolonka (-30%).mp3

Wassolonka solo phrase at 120bpm, -30%

(749.21 KiB) Downloaded 48 times

And once more, slowed down by 50%:

Wassolonka (-50%).mp3

Wassolonka solo phrase at 120bpm, -50%

(1007.01 KiB) Downloaded 52 times

It's possible to slow things down by as much as 75%, although I'm hard pressed to think of anything fast enough to make this necessary.

Overall, I'm very impressed so far. In terms of usability, features, and quality, the Sony PCM M-10 is a definite improvement over the Zoom H2.

Cheers,

Michi.

[Djembe-nerd]

Nice review and insight. I went through it but can;t write it with so much clarity

OK, brain picking time

The automatic recording feature works well. With four djembes and a dundun set, I could record from about 4m away in a lively room (read: too lively) without clipping. However, with 22 djembes and three dunduns (separate players) played loud, the automatic record feature couldn't handle the volume anymore. It appears that it will reduce the volume only so far, even if it detects clipping.

I had a dunun set and 4 djembes in a 22 x 22 m room and the recorder was approx the same distance away and couldn;t handle the auto. I will experiment more and see.

with the record level set at 2. I didn't have to switch on the limiter.

Same here.

The variable speed control works really well.

I haven;t tried this out yet. Does this work with files not recorded with PCM.

[bops]

Thanks Michi, for the super in-depth writeup. World's best forum!

The adjusted-tempo MP3s are really impressive. There's very little artifacting (distortion), even at half speed. That wasn't possible even a few years ago.

[michi]

I had a dunun set and 4 djembes in a 22 x 22 m room and the recorder was approx the same distance away and couldn;t handle the auto. I will experiment more and see.

Interesting. Maybe we weren't quite as loud as you guys? I did notice that, for that recording, the automatic gain reduction was probably at its limit so, any louder, and it probably would have started clipping.

I haven;t tried this out yet. Does this work with files not recorded with PCM.

Yes, works for both PCM and MP3 files. Also works for files that you didn't record with the recorder but copied across from a computer.

Cheers,

Michi.

[michi]

Thanks Michi, for the super in-depth writeup.

You are welcome

World's best forum!

Yep!

The adjusted-tempo MP3s are really impressive. There's very little artifacting (distortion), even at half speed. That wasn't possible even a few years ago.

Right. The DSP algorithms have been steadily improving. Here is the same clip once more, slowed down by 75%. There are very noticeable artifacts at that speed but, as a learning aid, it works just fine.

Wassolonka (-75%).mp3

Wassolonka solo phrase at 120bpm, -75%

(1.91 MiB) Downloaded 43 times

BTW, the recorder also has a pitch control, so you can adjust pitch up or down in semi-tone steps. Useful for someone who wants to play along to something in a different key.

Cheers,

Michi.

[michi]

Nice review and insight. I went through it but can;t write it with so much clarity

Thanks! I have some prior experience with technical writing

Cheers,

Michi.

[e2c]

Thanks so much to all of you (michi in particular!) for the reviews and discussion. It's very helpful!

* Got a question: what would you (all of you) recommend re. a recorder that's under 350.00 USD and can work well for quiet, "soft" instruments (percussion, guitar, etc.) as well as handle the dynamic range of djembes and duns reasonably well? I realize that the price I've mentioned is a big limitation, but ideally, I'd really like to avoid having to pay more than 250.00 tops.

[michi]

* Got a question: what would you (all of you) recommend re. a recorder that's under 350.00 USD and can work well for quiet, "soft" instruments (percussion, guitar, etc.) as well as handle the dynamic range of djembes and duns reasonably well? I realize that the price I've mentioned is a big limitation, but ideally, I'd really like to avoid having to pay more than 250.00 tops.

I think it still boils down to the same two choices at the moment: biggest bang for the buck is the Zoom H2, which you can buy for $169, including a 4GB card and a silicone jacket. Its sensitivity is more than sufficient for quiet instruments, and it handles loud impulse stuff too (except for really extreme volume levels).

Otherwise, for more features and ease of use, go for the Sony PCM M-10 at $274 (including small carry case).

In its price bracket, the Sony beats other recorders in terms of ease of use, features, and value for money, in my opinion.

Cheers,

Michi.

[Carl]

I realize that I am jumping in late in the game, but I have the PCM-D50, been using it for a couple of years now, and I LOVE it!

I would be interested to hear a side-by-side comparison to the M10. I was good to stop looking at recorders after I got it, but now I see a very similar product (same company!) for 1/2 the price!



Looking at Michi's review I still think I'm good with the D50. the angled mics are very useful (90/120 and "strait" configurations) Strait is useful for classes, point them directly at the dununs, and the djembe's will bleed in, of course you lose a lot of stereo affect, but there you go...

I do recommend getting as many memory sticks as you can, mostly to not have to think about class time. I usually get about 10 hours per stick at my settings, good for two short day's or one long one. (think camps and trips to guinea!) I plan on using one stick a day when I go to one of Mamady's camps. This way I usually have 4 hours or so of "overhead" per stick, you never know what can happen after class.

Later I copy everything to a hard drive for mastering. Speaking of which, I really need to shell out the cash for one of those terabyte drives....

The interface looks the same as the D10, though I think they had to save space on the external switches and what not. I really love having separate external volume and record level nobs!
Does the D10 have lowcut filter and limiter switches? or do you need to work through the interface?

Anyway, jealous of your new toy, and it reminds me that I still have weeks worth of recordings to process....

C

[michi]

I realize that I am jumping in late in the game, but I have the PCM-D50, been using it for a couple of years now, and I LOVE it!
I would be interested to hear a side-by-side comparison to the M10.

You can find reviews and sound samples at Wingfied Audio.

I was good to stop looking at recorders after I got it, but now I see a very similar product (same company!) for 1/2 the price!

The D50 is the better recorder in some ways. Better microphones with cardioid pattern, even lower noise floor, and built like a tank. It won't do MP3 recording or the variable playback but, otherwise, it's very similar to the M-10. I wouldn't go rushing out to buy an M-10 if you have the D50 already!

I do recommend getting as many memory sticks as you can, mostly to not have to think about class time. I usually get about 10 hours per stick at my settings, good for two short day's or one long one. (think camps and trips to guinea!) I plan on using one stick a day when I go to one of Mamady's camps. This way I usually have 4 hours or so of "overhead" per stick, you never know what can happen after class.

That's one problem with PCM-only recording: 4GB hold 6 hours of recordings at CD quality. With 320kbit/sec MP3, the same 4GB hold 27 hours. But memory is so cheap now that it doesn't matter much anymore: you can buy 4GB of SDHC class 6 flash for about $12 now. (The higher the class rating, the higher the read-write speed of the memory. Get the highest speed rating you can. Class 6 is 48Mbit/sec, class 10 is 80Mbit/sec, class 15 is 120Mbit/sec.)

The interface looks the same as the D10, though I think they had to save space on the external switches and what not. I really love having separate external volume and record level nobs!

Controls are very similar. The M-10 has a knob for record level, and a rocker switch for volume.

Does the D10 have lowcut filter and limiter switches? or do you need to work through the interface?

It does have a low-cut filter and a 12dB limiter. However, you need to use the menu to switch this on/off--there are no physical switches for this.

Anyway, jealous of your new toy, and it reminds me that I still have weeks worth of recordings to process...

No need to be jealous. The D50 records at better quality than the M-10. That's also reflected in the D50's price: $499, which is almost double the price of the M-10.

Cheers,

Michi.

[michi]

BTW, if you are after the variable playback speed, you can do that on your Mac:

• If you have the recording in iTunes, right-click on the song and select "Show in Finder"
• Right-click on the file and select "Open With". Choose "QuickTime Player 7". (Older versions of the player won't do variable-speed playback.)
• With the file open in QuickTime Player 7, choose "Window" and select "Show A/V Controls" (or hit Cmd-K).
• The A/V Control window that opens has controls to vary both speed and pitch.

Recent versions of Windows Media Player can do the same thing:

• With the file open in Media Player, click on the arrow underneath "Now Playing", select "Enhancements" and choose "Play Speed Settings".
• You can adjust playback speed in the pane that opens in Media Player.

Cheers,

Michi.

[Carl]

Wasn't really thinking of getting it, however, if the M10 was out 2 years ago I could have saved myself $300! (the D50 was $600 when I got it)

That's the good/bad side of the field recording industry right now. With the advent of cheap memory, the products get better every year (therefor what you bought 2 years ago gets toasted by this years latest model) fortunately the D50 was enough of a jump from my Soni minidisk that I am still happy! (though 27 hours per flashcard would be nice!)

C