6/8 versus 12/8

[bkidd]

Dear Technical and Western Notation Wonks,

Something that has puzzled me for a little while now is how the term 6/8 became synonymous with ternary rhythm. I'll often hear djembe players say something like "let's play a 6/8 rhythm" when what they really mean is lets play something different from a binary rhythm (4/4 or 16/8). This statement clearly isn't correct for some ternary rhythms such as konkoba or kotedjuga (which can be notated as 18/8 and 9/8 respectively). But I tend to think that most ternary rhythms can and should be represented as 12/8 rather than 6/8, especially when one considers the dunun parts and 4 beat cycles rather than just the djembe patterns.

Maybe this is a silly question, but I'm curious about how this came about and if anyone has words of wisdom on this.

Best,
-Brian

[The Dank]

Not a silly question at all!

Here's what comes to mind for me. In western classical music, pieces that have a "ternary" meter are (in my experience) more commonly notated as "6/8" than "12/8." So, when a djembe player with prior western classical experience hears a ternary rhythm, I suspect that the term "6/8" jumps much more readily to mind to describe the rhythm than "12/8."

Even though I played western classical music for many years before picking up the djembe and dunun, I'm not sure that I have a good understanding of what the "real" difference between 6/8 and 12/8 is. I guess my feeling on the matter is that the distinction comes down to a subtle difference in emphasis: A piece in 6/8 has a strong emphasis every other beat, whereas a piece in 12/8 has a strong emphasis only every fourth beat.

Because of this, I guess I agree that the term "12/8" is more accurate than "6/8" as a descriptor of the meter of most ternary djembe rhythms. However, I still use the term "6/8" because, for the reasons mentioned above, it jumps more readily to mind for me.

Cheers,
~Dan

[bkidd]

Here's what comes to mind for me. In western classical music, pieces that have a "ternary" meter are (in my experience) more commonly notated as "6/8" than "12/8."

Interesting idea. I have some background in classical western music theory, but I haven't come across many ternary rhythms so I'm not sure what is commonly notated.

I also wonder if it has to do with some people being djembe centric. The most common ternary phrase PaTiPa makes sense in 6/8 more so than 12/8.

It's good to have you on the boards Dan.

Best,
-Brian

[davidognomo]

hi,

I really don't have the time to get into this thouroughly, but, isn't 6/8 the same as 3/4? 3/4 is the ternary cycle, or measure (I'm portuguese, I don't know the name of the rhythmic cycle that is between bars in a music sheet in english)

but what I'm sure of is that 12/8 is a quaternary cycle with a ternary subdivision. So, 3/4 is the time signature for a ternary rhythm, such as the walse. I believe that most of the african rhythms we tend to classify as ternary, are actually quaternary rhythms with a ternary subdivision, 12/8.

I never studied konkoba, but looking at the notation, it seems like a ternary cycle with a ternary subdivision.

If anyone has corrections to make to what I wrote, be my guest. I studied music, but it was a long time ago.

[bkidd]

Hi David,

Technically 3/4 and 6/8 could both have 6 subpulses in a bar, but they have a different feeling. See the underlined counts below.

For example, 3/4 should retain a 3 pulse feel like:
1 2 3 4 5 6

Code: Select all

1 2 3 4 5 6
1 & 2 & 3 &


whereas 6/8 should retain a 2 pulse feel such as:
1 2 3 4 5 6

Code: Select all

1 2 3 4 5 6
1 & a 2 & a


This might all be overly academic because one could simply feel a 12/8 time signature as two cycles of 6/8. I guess it's a habit to think into 4 counts so I often find myself defaulting to 4 beats per bar, which does cause some confusion with Kotedjuga and Konkoba. This reminds me of when I had to do a double-take to figure out Thomas Ott's notation of 16/8. It could all come down to what people are accustomed to, but it's probably good to be flexible. Maybe there's some benefit to being able to perceive the music from multiple angles.

Best,
-Brian

[djembefeeling]

Hi Brian,

I had to laugh out loud when I read your initial hellos. Now I know what I am -- a technical and western notation wonk!

I didn't study music, so I am speaking from an amateurs perspective and could add to the confusion, but perhaps this might help:

I don't think that all of the above mentioned ideas are correct. Most important, the notion of pulse as I know it (from the discussion in musical ethnology) is that every number you put in the first row represents a pulse. Pulse is the steady stream of possible strokes beyond the level of rolls. In a typical echauffement you play a tone or slap on every pulse.

Thus, there is no difference in a 3/4 or 6/8 rhythm -- except that in a 3/4 rhythms you have 3 pulses of crotchets instead of 6 quavers. But with the repetition of cycles and relativity of tempo this difference becomes obsolete.

For the 3/4 feel, you propose the 2-versus-3 feeling. From my dancing lessons many years ago I recall a walse having a strong feel on every beat (and also, opposed to that, the off-beats). The 2-versus-3 feel (every two pulses are stressed against the beats on every third pulse) or a 4-versusu-3 feel is rather typical for the family of diyaa rhythms and sometimes in the dununba family like the notorious solo on mendiani (focus on slaps only):

Code: Select all

123456123456
s..os..bs.oo

I am not familiar with classical notation of ternary rhythms other than walse, but walse is notated in 3/4. Are other ternary pieces really notated in 6/8? Anyhow, I don't think this is the reason why 12/8 rhythms are mostly called 6/8 rhythms. I rather think its because the typical sidedrum (mostly s.os..) is the shortest cycle in these rhythms and became the defining moment. Some of the 12/8 rhythms have a cycle of two or even more measures, so its simply convenient to keep to the lowest cycle and common denominator instead of getting too nit-picky with 12/8, 24/8, 36/12, 60/8, or even 84/8 rhythms.

About emphasis I have strong doubts as well. In african music, the meter usually does not define the emphasis, because the emphasis is not always on the beat. There are key point i.e. pulses in every family of 6/8 rhythms apart from the beat, usually defined by the second stroke in the pairs of the typical timeline or bell pattern and the last single stroke in the meter, lets take for example dunungbé:

Code: Select all

123456123456
x.xx.x.xx.x.

And even those key points are not always and regularly stressed. Emphasis can and should be changed within a rhythm. That is a key concept of playing solo, because by emphasis you can change the perception of the rhythmic pattern, thus creating ever new and interesting perspectives for the audience (since we have only limited ressources for melodic change in djembe druming). Do you guys agree or did I get confused about anything?

cheers, jürgen

[komadich]

Hi Brian,
Thus, there is no difference in a 3/4 or 6/8 rhythm -- except that in a 3/4 rhythms you have 3 pulses of crotchets instead of 6 quavers. But with the repetition of cycles and relativity of tempo this difference becomes obsolete.

Although this is mathematically correct, it is not correct in terms of western musical notation. This notation, when strictly applied, creates confusion because it was not made for expressing rhythms other than the ones used in the classical music. The problem is that it concentrates on constant beat and it only makes difference between binary and ternary feels. Also, only the notes provided in the time signature can be accentuated, and this is a very important point for what you were asking. As bkidd explained earlier, the difference exists because of emphasis.

To make it short, as a "convention", when you can, you specify the rhythm with the lowest number possible. This can be expressed in 3/4 because it has 3 emphasis in the feel:



This, on the other hand, cannot be expressed in 3/4 because it has 2 emphasys, and the second one does not lie on one of the 3/4 provided (it lies in the 4th eight):


If you check the top of the both pictures, you get the feel, what bkidd explained. In the western musical notation the emphasis can only fall on the first of the group.

The difference between 12/8 and 6/8 is just the length. To make a short example, this rhythm could even be a 6/8 (tempo on top, djembe below):

Code: Select all

i..i..
s.ts..


But this one can only be 12/8:

Code: Select all

i..i..i..i..
s.ts.bs.ts.b


That's for western. But nowadays, specially in percussion, you don't use it so strictly.

[Afoba]

Hello,
I'm a quite talkative guy, and it doesn't happen that often that I'm interested in something and don't find many words to add. But this "opener" seems complete to me:

I'll often hear djembe players say something like "let's play a 6/8 rhythm" when what they really mean is lets play something different from a binary rhythm (4/4 or 16/8). This statement clearly isn't correct for some ternary rhythms such as konkoba or kotedjuga (which can be notated as 18/8 and 9/8 respectively). But I tend to think that most ternary rhythms can and should be represented as 12/8 rather than 6/8, especially when one considers the dunun parts and 4 beat cycles rather than just the djembe patterns.

[bkidd]

David and Djembefeeling,

The best way to feel the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 is in how it would be danced. 3/4 goes with the waltz and there are three main beats that people step to. In contrast, 6/8 has two main beats where one would dance. In any of the dununba rhythms for example, the feet fall on the two main beats rather than what would be expected in 3/4. Hopefully this makes sense, but I'll put a little code out as a guide using PaTiPa and then "f" for where the foot placement would follow 3/4 and 6/8.

Code: Select all

s.ts..s.ts..
1.2.3.1.2.3.
f.f.f.f.f.f.
1..2..1..2..
f..f..f..f..


One "could" dance a dununba rhythm in 3/4, but it would be totally wrong in terms of feeling if one marked their feet on the beat. It's not to say that all African dance steps fall on the beat (many do not), but there is a sense of a beat and everything lining up. Dance steps are simply clear indications for the beat in many contexts.

djembefeeling wrote:
Some of the 12/8 rhythms have a cycle of two or even more measures, so its simply convenient to keep to the lowest cycle and common denominator instead of getting too nit-picky with 12/8, 24/8, 36/12, 60/8, or even 84/8 rhythms.

komadich wrote:
The difference between 12/8 and 6/8 is just the length. To make a short example, this rhythm could even be a 6/8 (tempo on top, djembe below):

Great, maybe now I'll take up the charge to say 3/8 for ternary rhythms as that would be the base factor and everything is simply some multiple of this. Easy!

In all seriousness, it seems reasonable to be a little loose and use 6/8 and 12/8 interchangeably when the overall structure is divisible by 2. In other cases like I've mentioned (Kotedjuga and Konkoba) this doesn't make sense because they are 9/8 and 18/8 patterns. Do other rhythms have 9/8 or 18/8 signatures? I don't know of any, but maybe someone else does. Also, I suspect that some rhythms could technically have fairly high numerator time signatures, but it's simply a matter of convenience to notate them a lower common factor.

That's for western. But nowadays, specially in percussion, you don't use it so strictly.

Good to know, thanks!
-Brian

[bkidd]

I'm a quite talkative guy, and it doesn't happen that often that I'm interested in something and don't find many words to add. But this "opener" seems complete to me:

I'll take that as a compliment.

Afoba, I'll really appreciate your talkativeness and have learned much from your other posts.

Thanks,
-Brian

[komadich]

Great, maybe now I'll take up the charge to say 3/8 for ternary rhythms as that would be the base factor and everything is simply some multiple of this. Easy!

Indeed. If you look at some other musical styles, you have to do pretty much the same. Sometimes the tempo is expressed like this (for instance for Arabic rhythms): 3 + 2 + 2 / 8, which would be one variant of a 7/8. The */8 or */4 doesn't make much sense to me actually since it only expresses speed and it's difficult to attribute any speed to an African rhythm because it's never constant. So perhaps you could just say that an African ternary rhythm is simply a 4x3.

[bkidd]

The */8 or */4 doesn't make much sense to me actually since it only expresses speed and it's difficult to attribute any speed to an African rhythm because it's never constant.

Actually that's not quite correct. Time signatures do not contain information about the speed or more accurately the tempo of a piece. A rhythm in */8 or */4 can readily change tempo and still keep the same underlying structure.

[Afoba]

I'm a quite talkative guy, and it doesn't happen that often that I'm interested in something and don't find many words to add. But this "opener" seems complete to me:

I'll take that as a compliment.

That was one of the two ideas! d;-)

I'll really appreciate your talkativeness and have learned much from your other posts.
Thanks,
-Brian

You're welcome and thanx for the compliment!
D

[nkolisnyk]

I have to add that fully understanding West African music in a 'classical' sense, written down on paper, is only half the battle. If you're playing a rhythm just like it's written, you still don't have 'quite' the right feel.

Take jazz music, for example. Some of the riffs are so complicated, that most of the time, they simply write it as straight-4 on paper (ie 4/4), and leave it to the musician to interpret it as '12/8' swung. This also allows the musician some 'artistic expression' when it comes to how swung or how straight they play a lick (ie jazz vs blues).

When it comes to West African drumming, the true feeling of a rhythm USUALLY lies somewhere between 4/4 and 12/8. Only experience and playing with other musicians will allow you to get this 'loose yet tight' feeling. I will always be working on this, and doubt I will ever quite get it. But there's no harm in trying!

[bkidd]

nkolisnyk wrote:
When it comes to West African drumming, the true feeling of a rhythm USUALLY lies somewhere between 4/4 and 12/8.

I would actually argue that a number of rhythms fall very close to one or the other of these frameworks. For a lot of Guinean rhythms it's pretty close, although there are definite exceptions to this like Yankadi and Soboninkun. For Malian stuff, there seems to be more rhythms that deviate from this framework as microtiming stretches. A number of Malian experts on this forum, as well as Ranier Polak, have discussed this topic at length. The upshot is a distinctive Malian feeling that requires a lot of listening to and playing with the Masters.

Only experience and playing with other musicians will allow you to get this 'loose yet tight' feeling.

Totally agree!

I will always be working on this, and doubt I will ever quite get it. But there's no harm in trying!

I think we're all working on embodying this rhythmic feeling that brings life and joy to West African music, making it so sweet to listen to and fun to play when everything fits. Here's to the process of finding that pocket.

Best,
-Brian