Thoughts on Wolosso

[e2c]

I thank you all for your inputs and insight. Discourse is a true gem in the world.

I have to say I am extremely surprised at people's adherence to define the "difference" between slavery systems. None of us lived then, non of us have concrete academic examination of the conditions and results. Just look at the film "Roots". Were the slaves living in those conditions? Or was it Hollywood-izing the scene for the purposes of perception? Those houses and amenities were pretty nice. Is that how it really was or...?

What is the motivation behind vehemently defining a difference between conditions of slaves? None of us were there and none of us can understand the perspective of the slaves who were. As I said before, many American slaves returned to the plantations after emancipation. The "haratin" I have spoken to here in Mauritania will say it wasn't that bad with their words, but in the same breath seek the benefits of free society, not completely understanding all of the effort and education that goes into a free society. Am I, or are you, one of those people who would berate those slaves who returned and tell them they do not understand the implications of what they are doing?

It is all a soup of ambiguity waiting for discourse, but with no solution or resolution in sight (maybe one is not possible but the discourse is the path to freedom, not the "solution)

I'm amazed - and kind of shocked - by the same things as you are, Rusty.

"Freedom" of a people normally means freedom of the elites, lower classes or slaves don't really count in a nation's history...

????! - Daniel, to say that the "lower classes" aren't important re. "freedom" is kind of like saying that East Germans under the Communist regime weren't (maybe still aren't?) important because they were East Germans and had the misfortune of being born on the other side of the border... or Berlin Wall, whichever.

And to say that the poor and/or slaves "don't really count in a nation's history" is absolute nonsense, in the Western Hemisphere for certain. (Although i would say "everywhere in the world" without a second's hesitation.) And... what about France, starting in 1789?!

Have none of you European folks ever been in the Western Hemisphere? I'm asking mainly because I'm curious, but also because it seems that many of you haven't seen the kinds of things some of us have been talking about firsthand.

*

If you can ever come over here - to the US, the Caribbean, or Latin America - I would urge you to make the trip. I think you will enjoy yourselves, but also... you will see just a very little bit of the consequences of what is under discussion.

Or maybe we can all join in with the anti-slavery societies that are in existence today because they are necessary, and take a trip with some of the people who are working to abolish slavery (of all kinds) in many countries. I know that would be very eye-opening for me personally!

*

A note, though: I think lots of former slave-owners in the US South pressured people into staying on sharecropper's wages (which was, basically, peonage) and that some of the "pressure" was very ugly indeed. (The Klan, de facto segregation, etc. etc. etc.)

People (ex-slaves) who knew trades - and (possibly) might have been able to read were in a far better position to be able to move on than were those who were working in the fields... and if anything, the numbers of "field hands" had increased greatly in the decades leading up to the Civil War, due to the increased emphasis on cotton production in the South.

The Great Migration (of black Americans from the South to the North) didn't begin in earnest until the 1920s. I think the fact that many black Southerners were able to learn to read and write (even though most schools for black people were horribly substandard) was part of that... though I don't doubt that lots of people - of all ethnic backgrounds - in the South were unable to read/write prior to the advent of public education.

*
I also believe that it's awfully hard for people who have been enslaved - physically, politically, etc. - to envision making a life for themselves when their opportunities have been so limited.

Equally, it's hard for me to imagine myself being in that situation, but...

Black american poet Langston Hughes wrote about this -

A Dream Deferred

What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?

[Daniel Preissler]

please think again and we talk about it later.
or maybe we should stop here now.
read my postings again or leave it.

it's about truth, that's all, you no?!
I didn't say I would tell anyone that they don't understand their situation. But I dare to say that you don't understand. You're missing the subject.
by the way, I AM a historian, have a little look at Meillassoux, Claude and Jones, Adam to get some more info.
Greets, Daniel

[Daniel Preissler]

e2c
I hadn't read your posting before my last.
you too you got it all wrong. You understand things that I never wrote or maybe I didn't express well enough.

I wasn't defending slavery in any way, you know?

????! - Daniel, to say that the "lower classes" aren't important re. "freedom" is kind of like saying that East Germans under the Communist regime weren't (maybe still aren't?) important because they were East Germans and had the misfortune of being born on the other side of the border... or Berlin Wall, whichever.
And to say that the poor and/or slaves "don't really count in a nation's history" is absolute nonsense, in the Western Hemisphere for certain. (Although i would say "everywhere in the world" without a second's hesitation.) And... what about France, starting in 1789?!

I wanted to say, that the history of a nation is always written by the elites, and that usually the feelings and opinions of lower class people don't appear in it (take the Napoleonian time: the simple German was more free that at any time before, but everyone was talking about occupation). AND I wrote, that this has changed a bit in Europe. AND I mentioned the French Revolution.

Please leave out your morals (that I share completely!) and read what I really wrote, not what you associate with it! (I'm serious!!!)

I won't comment on the rest of your posting, it doesn't touch what I wrote. Read it again and think a bit.
By the way, I am shocked as well, by your naive AND unfair way to discuss.

Next time in another thread, this doesn't make sense here, because you try to put me in the corner of the "morally weakers", (though this was not the theme), and don't respect the basic rules of discussion.

It seems to be a hard subject in the US, where it's very hard to speek about without being missunderstood, due to your history. Good to know that! In France it's the Colonization, in Germany the Holocaust and Isreal. Thank you for this lesson! Concerning the rest... well, I'm shocked!

Greets, Daniel

[music]

even though we are off the topic of wolosso I find this string to be an interesting conversation so I would hope to keep it going.

hmmm.....most historians I have had the pleasure to meet are aware that their view of history is simply a single perspective. There is no "truth" because each event is viewed differently through the eyes of different people. One can gain insight into the different perspectives of the time or event represented through varying historical accounts, but the "truth" in the historical sense is more ambiguous than concrete.

For example: I have heard the statement made "the slaves in the south were not allowed to play their drums." I've seen a newspaper posting from the state of GA that confirms this. But did this apply to all plantation owners, to all slaves? We don't have historical "facts" on every single situation. So the more correct statement might be "there is evidence that some slaves in the south were not permitted to play drums." This may be followed by discussion as to the consistency of plantation culture throughout the south and the inference may be made that it could well have been that an overwhelming majority, possibly even all of the plantations did operate in this manner. But the only truth that is available are the few documented cases where this can be demonstrated.

The specifics of language and usage was part of the beginning of this string and I see i is still at the forefront of our discussion. Attempting to develop an understanding of history is always good. Hopefully we are less guided by prejudices and pre-conceived ideas rather than a quest for understanding.

[Daniel Preissler]

yes, music!

[Paul]

????! - Daniel, to say that the "lower classes" aren't important

I didn't get that from Daniels comment at all....

In relation to Africa it quite pertinent to suggest that history is written by the elite... My much earlier comments about Bayart and 'extraversion' are based around the belief of the contiuation of power that perhaps preceeded colonialism and is desperatly clinging to power now in Ivory Coast.. They wrote history, they wrote constitutions at independence and they abused ethnic realities (divisions) and traditions to stay in power e.g. 'ivoirite'..

Not too sure how my Fanon quote was taken.... I dont see any point (well...) in relating African slavery practices to The US, Germany, Saudi Arabia or anywhere else.. There are too many distinctive factors.. (mind you I see every point in relating it to current political economics of Africa, but I would do )

Have none of you European folks ever been in the Western Hemisphere?

Yes..but.. We have a whole different (and differing) lens of analysis (and perhaps more differing ones.. eg. I believe you dont have access to Al jazeera which for my part has been excellent in analysing the current happenings in the middle east), feudalism, colonisation within and without (though the student has surpassed the master on the neo-colonial front).. Again further reason not too analyse African concepts throught the medium of events elsewhere as we dont even have perfect or equal information on these subjects.. Check out 'le haine' or the 'battle for algiers' for a perspective on the French situation...

In haste..

[e2c]

Well, we do have Al Jazeera, but not on cable TV. We have to watch on the internet, which is something that I like to do from time to time. (fwiw, I've never had any bad feelings toward Al Jazeera personally; I used to see it - but not understand the language - in some of my former students' homes. There has been a *lot* of propaganda over here about AJ, though, and many people are afraid of it without ever having watched it or read the blogs on the station's English-language site.)

Daniel, my apologies for having misread some of your previous comments. I didn't fully understand what you were saying; your clarification (especially about the writing of history) makes sense to me. On other issues, I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I also agree that history must be looked at through many lenses, not just one. (Like some of you, I have a history degree, so I have had to wrestle with this personally.)

But... I think I would like to hear some views from other people now. What I've said in my last few posts is actually more applicable to the thread on racism in drum/dance, though (since Rusty raised certain issues re. the post-Civil War period in the US South) is also pertinent here, at least as far as I can see re. some of the ways in which slavery is being discussed.

[Michel]

e2c wrote:

It's a very difficult subject; I think we have to be sensitive to those who are reading but not commenting.

You're right, but it's a djembeforum and we were discussing 'thoughts on wolosso', so I think we are free to discuss anything about it. By the way, there is an english version of Al Jazeera.

[e2c]

AJ: Yes, I know. I've been watching it a lot recently (their English-language online stream).

And yes, it's a djembe forum, but the issues being raised here are... well, like ripples in a pond, maybe. I am waiting for some input from black Americans here - and hoping that at least one or two people who read this forum will give their perspective.

(Edited to add link to a related thread: social/racial-predjudice-african-drum-and-dance-t2734.html )

[e2c]

Back on page 1, music wrote

Although the concept of human rights must have been much different then, I believe we can safely assume that no person in any position of slavery or servitude has ever had it good, and one would take quite a risk to compare conditions of slavery between one culture and another.

And that is pretty much where I'm coming from, too.

Like Rusty/music, I find it hard to understand why anyone would want to compare one kind of slavery to another, in terms of the human cost... the suffering experienced by those who were (or are) enslaved.

To my mind, that is similar to discussing statistics of battles and wars (so many dead, so many wounded) without any recognition of the suffering involved.

I am not saying that anyone involved in this discussion is doing that.

But I did want to try and clarify my view, which is based largely on study of US and Brazilian music and music history.

When you are committed to music that was created by black Brazilians, or by African Americans - samba, blues, jazz - an awareness of the conditions of life during the era of slavery and post-slavery, up til now, is part of the package. To avoid seeing these things - to avoid facing uncomfortable truths - is not optional (in my opion, at least).

One of the reasons this is on my mind: there are tensions created by the legacy of slavery and racial segregation that are very much with us in African drum and dance on this side of the Atlantic. (That's not to deny that prejudices exist elsewhere; I am stating a fact about what it's like here.)

When I mentioned the sensibilities of readers a number of posts back, I was thinking of the tensions that do exist here, and how this discussion might be perceived by people who have a stake in it but choose not to comment.

In some ways, things are quite one-sided: everyone who's commented so far is (to my knowledge) white. So there are things that I don't know firsthand - that none of us know firsthand. (In terms of living with discrimination on a daily basis, etc.)

It has not been that many generations since the abolition of slavery in the US, although it might seem like it was a long time ago. I think it will take a few hundred years more for things to become less polarized than they are now.

I do understand that there are big differences between cultures. But human rights issues are, well... human rights issues.

Does that make sense?

(Edited to add: just to show how much this is all a "current events" thing in many parts of the US, see this article from today's New York Times - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/12/arts/ ... l?src=recg )

[Michel]

Maybe this is more clear: Wolossodon is not a rhythm from the southern states of the USA. And when someone on the djembeforum asks for thoughts on something, to share them, about a rhythm, well, then we try to find what we can, gather information, guess a little about what we suspect about it, and hope that people react on it. But some discussions on this forum become so sensitive. I think you're right, e2c, that everybody is probably white who posted reactions. I think it is very white to talk about djembe on a forum on the internet.... But I guess that we are also all grown-ups, we are interested in something else than mainstream, like to know more about a certain other part of the world and it's music, we are capable of deciding what we want for ourselves and let other people in their value. And we don't have to speak or think for others, who might be reading our posts and might get offended. Than we get a sort of censorship in this forum that kills discussion/exchange of information, I'm afraid. Let's talk about music again. Suku/soli, about circumcision. Also very sensitive in human rights issues!!

[e2c]

I think you are inferring "political correctness" and "censorship" from what I have said in previous posts... and I think you are incorrect in doing so.

OK?

Also (one last time): for a lot of people in the world, the legacy of slavery is a very real thing. That is all I was attempting to point out re. the NYT article. (Which mentions, among other things, how difficult it is to discuss this, even now - and how many people didn't even start talking about it publicly until the 1990s, almost 130 years after abolition.) Just because people in Mali talk openly about someone being descended from slaves does not necessarily = all problems from slavery are OK now.

Does that make sense?

Everyone has his/her own point of view, regardless of nationality, ethnic background - whatever. I'd like to hear some other points of view besides those of the handful of people (including me) who post here all the time.

[music]

It's all good stuff.

Anyway, did anyone get a chance to listen to the link for the Bonkolo version of Jon Foly?

Thanks for your input. You can hear the Bambara bonkolo Jonfoly I speak of at http://www.malikan.web.officelive.com/default.aspx

The song equates the horon - who does not belong in the Jon foly to the sera (a bitter additive to a dish they eat - "toh") being put in the Dege (a sweet millet and cream porridge). The ydo not belong. I was told it was the opportunity for the jon to mock the horon in the only realm where they were freely allowed to speak through song. I witnessed many people from Horon families who were mortified at the thought of dancing the wolosso or jondon. Save the few artists who dance it as a professional pursuit.

I was also told the dances of the wolosso and jon are more risque than other Malian dance styles because the slaves have no shame, so they even may dance naked - when i asked why they have no shame they replied - "because they are slaves - why would they"

Is male circumcision a human rights issue now?

[music]

I tried to invite some people from other discussions I participate in to chime in but they are not really djembe people so who knows if they will contribute

[e2c]

... I was told it was the opportunity for the jon to mock the horon in the only realm where they were freely allowed to speak through song. I witnessed many people from Horon families who were mortified at the thought of dancing the wolosso or jondon. Save the few artists who dance it as a professional pursuit.

I was also told the dances of the wolosso and jon are more risque than other Malian dance styles because the slaves have no shame, so they even may dance naked - when i asked why they have no shame they replied - "because they are slaves - why would they"

Exactly. They are also dealing with the legacy of slavery in Mali - albeit differently than in the US.

We Westerners are only going to see the superficial stuff; that's one reason why I am hoping that others will join the discussion.

Edited to add: the remark about risqué dances and no shame could have been made in any number of countries, not just Mali - and as a contemporary statement, not something that's been put aside because people have supposedly "gotten past" it. We haven't - and a lot of Malians clearly haven't.

Which brings me back to a question I asked several pages ago: how do people from former jon and woloso families feel about being reminded of their background? If music's statements above are anything to go by... it might not be an easy experience for them.

I'd like to hear more about that.