Mande rhythm families

[bubudi]

i was thinking about the comments made on the rhythm in bops' version of 'afro blue' in the name da riddim game thread.

according to several masters in mali, if we are to look at mande music musically (i.e. not so much the context), nearly all mande rhythms fall into one of three families:
1. dansa
2. suku
3. denba

in upper guinea, some masters will also give 3 chief rhythm families, but the names are changed:
1. kassa
2. soli
3. djaa

ok, so as we know soli and suku are pretty much the same rhythm. dansa and kassa are not that different (however the swing can change quite a bit between the two) musically. what about djaa and demba?

to my thinking, there are two main things that define the maraka family musically. firstly, there is often an emphasis on the first offbeat. it's present a little in the main dunun pattern, in one of the djembe accompaniments, and very much in the solos.
main dunun pattern:

Code: Select all

1 - - 2 - - 3 - - 4 - -
o - c - c - - o - o - o
        *     *         

djembe accompaniment:

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1 - - 2 - - 3 - - 4 - -
b s - t s - b s - t s -
  *     *     *     *   

typical solo phrases:

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1 - - 2 - - 3 - - 4 - -
b s t t s - b s - b s -
  *     *     *     *   
t - - b s - b s - b - t
        *     *         

the other thing is the call.

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ttt t t t - t t - t - -

while calls are not considered so traditional, it's interesting that the mande rhythms that have this call include: denba/maraka, ngri/wasolonka, soko, djaa, djidamba.

it's also interesting to note that both djaa and denba/maraka have a similar context in which they're played. however, you don't get the same dunun phrase or accompaniments in djaa. the siguiri version as taught by mamady has a similar kenkeni pattern to denba (reversed), but otherwise, djaa seems to resemble soko more both in terms of the dunun and the djembe accompaniments. i don't think you would ever hear the two played in the same festival in any malinke village, though.

ngri probably deserves a class of its own due to the complexity and the changes in swing.

djidamba's kenkeni has a similar feel to the konkoni in denba, and a few of the solo phrases compare too.

would you classify denba and djaa as the same family? would you class soko and djaa as the same family? why or why not? what about fula fare? (yes, i know, not a mande rhythm). to me that has a different feel to denba/maraka, but i noticed two people on the other thread think they are very similar.

by the way, afoba, i know you will disagree with number 2. above containing soli, as you have said before that dununba, mendiani, konden, etc fit in there, but not soli. i would prefer to focus on the 3rd family for now, and maybe we can discuss the 2nd family in more depth afterwards. thanks.

[Afoba]

by the way, afoba, i know you will disagree with number 2. above containing soli, as you have said before that dununba, mendiani, konden, etc fit in there, but not soli. i would prefer to focus on the 3rd family for now, and maybe we can discuss the 2nd family in more depth afterwards. thanks.

Correct - it's not in that group! And ok, we can speak about this later d;-) (concerning phrazing you are right, by the way: Soli and Den are in the same group, but not concerning bell lines).
but it's hard to leave it out completely, because for me Sökö and Dya (and in a way Maraka, if you want to compare this) are in the same group, but Sökö and Fakoly are in the same relation to Dya than Mendiani (well: den and bundian/manamba) is to Dundunbas (B to A like D to C, if you want).

components of this group are:
the call
the phrazing
the typical bell lines (even, if there's no bell, there normally is still a bell line)
the dundunba echauffement (if there's a dundunba and if there's an echauffement) that is always played on the downbeat (towards the downbeat)

it's also interesting to note that both djaa and denba/maraka have a similar context in which they're played. however, you don't get the same dunun phrase or accompaniments in djaa. the siguiri version as taught by mamady has a similar kenkeni pattern to denba (reversed), but otherwise, djaa seems to resemble soko more both in terms of the dunun and the djembe accompaniments. i don't think you would ever hear the two played in the same festival in any malinke village, though.

The context doesn't really count in this discussion. The Kensedeni is very often the same.
What Dya and Sökö have in common apart from the phrazing group and Maraka hasn't, is the rhythm's length (there is no "pause part" in Maraka).
I don't know, if Sökö is played or has been played in regions where Maraka is played. It would never be played for the same festival.
I don't know either, if Dya and Maraka are both played in one same region traditionally. But I can say that there's one village in the world where both can be played for the same festival in some occasions (Dyalaban or Dyalon): That's Baro, where most probably Mansa has brought Maraka from Bamako as a new "Dyidanba".

I know that Rainer Polak counts 4 different groups (like me, but others). He would distinguish two binary groups as well. There's something "in this direction" in Hamana, too. I would call this special group "Kassa" for a start, and would take Soliba/Balakulandyan as an example for a "normal" binary piece.

So, if we decide to seperate here concerning Hamana, too, we get

1) Dundunba (with Mendiani as a subgroup)
2) Soli (the smallest group, very special thing, maybe to small for an own group)
3) Dya (and Maraka, if we mix regions up) (with Sökö as a subgroup)
4) Soliba/Balakulandyan
5) "Kassa" (Soro, Wölöbaföli...) (sometimes a different phrazing around the ONE - I, personally, would prefer to see it as a subgroup of 4. But things are different in Bamako.)

I don't know where to put Dansa, I don't know it well enough (I think it's a Kasonka rhythm, so no good example at all for djembe/dundun music, isn't it?).
Maybe it's easier to stay with the three groups you mentioned, Bubudi, but to see Soli/Suku as a special thing:

1) dundunba/mendiani
2) dya/maraka
3) Soliba/Fura


Greets, Daniel

[Afoba]

by the way, Bubudi: very important subject!

[djembefeeling]

bubudi, you might want to correct the last two asterisks in the djembe accompaniment of maraka.

concerning the family, I treat all these rhythms with the same call pretty much the same. but, I guess, this is due to my little experience. however, I think the crucial pulses (which Paul Engel as one of the first used to point out): pulse 3, 8, and 10 (perhaps also pulse 5), are the same in all these rhythms. if you use those as markers for orientation in your soloing, its likely to sound good.

a general problem in classification is that you do this according to a leading interest. what is your interest here? there are, probably, numerous ways to classify the rhythms, especially out of the social context.

Rainer Polak, for example, has a more complex view on the rhythms of Mali. I cannot speak for him, it would be better to have him included in this discussion, for he is the expert on this. but as a start, I can try to summarize what I understood this far.

His musical analyses does focus on the different swing types. As a result, he does not include Maraka in his classification at all, because the pulsation is almost isochronous. thus, it's the beginners rhythm in his masterclass.

swing type A has a cycle of 16 pulses and 4 beats. it is characterized by a swing of this pulsation:
long:short:long:short -- or in short; long:short
you can subsume dansa, madan, wolosodon, tansole, fura, sanja, and bara in this class.

this class has, and this is a particularly interesting result of this analysis, close relations to type B, a 12 pulse/ 4 beats class. He sees manjanin, suku, wolosodon, garanke, numu and tissiba in this class. they are related to type A because of their specific swing:
short:medium:long.

why is this? it's because you can break the long pulse of long:short into two pulses of a short and a medium duration, resulting in a 12/4 cycle.

in the same manner, the two remaining groups are related. type C is again ternary, with three possible swing types:

long:short medium
long:medium:short
long:short:short

with sumalen, kirin, sunun, fula, jina 2, brurun, and bobo-foli among this class.

those are closely connected to the binary (16/4) swing type D, with sunun, sogolo, jina, and komo-foli:

short:medium:long:medium
short:long:long:long
short:medium:long long

there is an easy change of rhythms from type A into type B and vice versa, the same is true for type C and D.

For a more detailed discussion of his models of micro-timing read Rainer Polaks essay:

http://tcd.freehosting.net/djembemande/microtiming.html

and this great study:

http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.10.16.4/mto.10.16.4.polak.html


when I asked him about more details of his classification and tried to subsume different rhythms under the different classes, he was hesitant, because he did not want me to simplify things. it seems to be more complex than this. e.g. some masters in Mali play two different and opposite swing types in some rhythms. so we have to be aware that classification is a modell for us trying to understand and control the "chaos" of so many different rhythms that are taken as "given" by those who have been raised in those cultures.

but its fun and I like it. every modell capable of explaining connections gives another dimension to the music and makes it more kneadable for me, adds to my joy hearing the music and my competence in playing it.

[Afoba]

very well, Jürgen!
I had some discussions on this with my collegue Lukas.
I think the "chaos" you describe is especially great in Bamako, where lots of different influences meet, that lead to the phenomenon you have described here (complex categorization and drummers using different phrazings in one rhythm/musical piece).

To translate:
swing type A includes most upper guinean binary rhythms

swing type B is more or less equal to what Paul Engel used to call the "dundunba group"

Changing between the two groups is NOT possible in Hamana (but the bell structures are quite the same)

swing type C is what Bubudi wants to talk about here. I don't know Rainer's reasons for not counting Maraka among it, but I'm no specialist on Mali/Bamako pieces anyway (might be comparable to me not counting Soli among my type 1 or Rainer's type B or Paul's "dundunba group").

Changing between type C and binary versions doesn't appear during fêtes, but is thinkable or has been possible before, or... e.g. some drummers can think Fakoli as a binary rhythm.

swing type D doesn't exist in Hamana. But there is what I called "Kassa" above: often long-short (LS), but sometimes something like SLLSLSLSLSLSLSLS or SLLSLSLDSLLSLSLS, what means that the other phrazing only appears during some phrases and only around the ONE or ONE and THREE.
I can't see any further differences between type D and A (accept the djembe blocage for D) - here, too, the bell lines have got the same structure as in type B (ternary). So concerning Guinea, we can stay with these 3 groups (Soli not included) and see the SLLS-beginning rhythms as a subgroup.

If I changed Dansa into a ternary one, it would be one of type C, too. And I don't believe that Rainer has seen it changing in one of type B. By the way, Jürgen, do you know any examples of binary rhythms changing into ternary type B rhythms during fêtes? Or is it only theoretical, too?
Of course one's view always depends on what one has looked at and what different person's have seen. As you say, Rainer has a close look at the microtiming structures, for me this is rather the second aspect after the bell structure (I'm closer to Paul here). In Hamana it makes more sense to start with the dunduns, because basically it's more dundun music than djembe music. This might be different in Bamako or other regions. Dansa is a Kasonka rhythm anyway, isn't it? So probably no good example for (older) djembe and dundun structures.
As I said, Bamako is the melting pot and it's very hard to establish a categorization that includes Bamako completely or that even starts there.

Greetings, Daniel

[djembefeeling]

Jürgen, do you know any examples of binary rhythms changing into ternary type B rhythms during fêtes? Or is it only theoretical, too?

No, I haven't been to Bamako, yet. Just theory, and even very speculative. This part of the classification I did not grasp very well, yet. We hardly ever changed in the masteclass from a binary into a ternary, only with Sunun this far. I suppose Woloso-don might be an example, for its in both groups, A and B. Perhaps Madan in the version of Rainers "realbook".

there is what I called "Kassa" above: often long-short (LS), but sometimes something like SLLSLSLSLSLSLSLS or SLLSLSLDSLLSLSLS, what means that the other phrazing only appears during some phrases and only around the ONE or ONE and THREE.

Now I would like to have a sound sample!

I don't know Rainer's reasons for not counting Maraka among it

but I did write his reason down in my first post above. please read, again.

If I changed Dansa into a ternary one, it would be one of type C, too.

why is that? why would you see the bells for the Hamanah binary rhythms as basically the same as the ternary one of the Dja family, anyway? I would see some resemblance between the standard ternary bell
.1..2..3..4..
xx.x.xx.x.x.x

and the cascara
.1...2...3...4...
xx.xx.x.xx.x.xx.x

But why the Malinke bell?
1...2...3...4...
x.xx.xx.x.x.x.x.

It seems, I still have plenty to learn. You want to lure me into one of your workshops, you rascal!

[Afoba]

why is that? why would you see the bells for the Hamanah binary rhythms as basically the same as the ternary one of the Dja family, anyway? I would see some resemblance between the standard ternary bell
.1..2..3..4..
xx.x.xx.x.x.x

and the cascara
.1...2...3...4...
xx.xx.x.xx.x.xx.x

But why the Malinke bell?
1...2...3...4...
x.xx.xx.x.x.x.x.

I don't know which region you refer to by saying "standard bell". For me the standard bell can only be a "malinke bell", because that's the only thing I have a look at.
I was saying the binary bells in Hamana have got the same structure as the dundunba and mendiani rhythms NOT as the Dya rhythms. This is a bell structure relation, a question of one/two intervalls or 2 and 3, if you prefer (x. and xx.). Sangban:
x.xx.xx.x.x.x.x. (your binary example)
x.xx.xx.x.x. (mananba/bundian, dundungbè, sometimes even den/first ternary "mendiani")
Dundunba (éch. and var.):
/.o.o.o.oo.oo.o.o/. (Soro and others)
/.o.o.o.oo.oo/. (Dundunbas, Den...) it's only 4 pulses less in the ternary rhythms, but the same structure - very very often!

BUT: The relation between Dya and binary rhythms is a relation based on/refering to BEATS, not on bell structures. This is what Rainer speaks about for Bamako, too (but the other way around I think: today, a binary rhythm in BKO can become a ternary one of the dya group when played faster - In Hamana a rhythm of the dya group: Tasaba, Fakoli gets binary tendencies, if the phrazing is strong enough. If the djembé does this, the dunduns COULD switch, they don't do, but you can very well say,which note would become which one, if played as a binary rhythm. I saw the same guys playing Fakoli once as a ternary piece (type C), and once as ternary (only in class, but Lukas has got a recording like that with the same guys). Fakoli become like the long Kassa then (I kan ködöta) and you can play nearly the same solos (there's a neighbourhood of Dya and Kassa concerning solos sometimes and between dundunba and kassa concerning bells).
/x.x.x.xx.xx./ or /x.x.x.xx.x.x/x Tasaba, Fakoli, Dya
/x.xx.xx.x.x.x.x./ or /x.xx.xx.x.x.xx.x/ (Kassa)
This is the equivalent to Rainer's theory, but it's not as important in Hamana as in Bamako. And the structures are less and simpler.

You are right, it's fun. I could even "prove" the rassemblence of Danza and Mendiani that way, but not as Rainer does, it would be a longer way for me.
x.xx.xx.x.x.x.x. (bell that doesn't exist on the Konkoni, but would be that way, if...)
o..o..o...+...o. becomes

x.x.x.xx.xx.
o.o.o..+..o. doesn't exist, but is next to the dundunba of Tasaba in Dyèrègbèla:

x.x.x.xx.xx.
o.o.o..o..o. which is like a variation of e.g. the dundunba of Tasaba in Fisadu:

x.x.x.xx.x.x
o.o.o..o.o.. (containing all of Paul's "big points" d;-) ) If we turn this (put it 4 pulses earlier) it bec.

x.xx.xx.x.x.
o..o..o.o.o. (the dundunba line of Mananba/Bundian, the second ternary "Mendiani" in Hamana/Gberedu)

If we do the same with a acc. second dundun which plays downbeat for Dansa (don't know, if this exists), Tasaba Dyèrègbèla (Sangban) and Tasaba Fisadu (Sangban Ech.), this becomes an offbeat pattern: /..o..o..o..o/ in the last example. This pattern can occasionally appear as a variation for Bundian.
If we imagine a Kensedeni going /....o.o.....o.o./ or /....oo......oo../ for Dansa (doesn't exist, but for some rhythms in Hamana (Fèfö, Wölöbaföli, Landio...), it becomes
/...oo....oo./ for the Tasaba versions (exists as Kensedeni for the first and for several other rhythms of this group - and as Sangban pattern for the Fisadu version!). This pattern becomes what (if we think of the 4 pulses)? YES: the Kensedeni of the first ternary Hamana Mendiani (Den)!

We could add that the Dundunba for Bundian/Mananba and in these two Tasaba versions takes over some melody functions from the Sangban in comparison to other rhythms. That's why this works for this example.
In general, if we try to shift rhythms from ternary to binary or the other way around, the dundunba (which might be the reason why it doesn't work with most rhythms in Hamana, especially the dundunba/mendiani group) has to be o.o.o.o.o.o. or o..o..o..o.. (downbeat) in the ternary version.
If you want to play a musical piece from Bamako with a dundunba: try the downbeat dundunba, it works quite often!

After all it's just playing (as you said, Jürgen). But it's a lot of fun and trains the head (but not the real play).
Don't get me wrong: I didn't say that I have shown the historical development of these rhythms. It's just several structures that we recognize in different places and combinations. I have no idea, if the rhythms they play in Hamana today have been seperated some hundred years ago further north-east, or if the seperation has arrived with the using of djembe and dunduns together, or if such things happen again and again today ... it's all just speculation. Maybe we'll know more in some years from now - and maybe not.

Have a nice day,
Daniel

[bubudi]

bubudi, you might want to correct the last two asterisks in the djembe accompaniment of maraka.

thanks, they are now corrected!

a general problem in classification is that you do this according to a leading interest. what is your interest here? there are, probably, numerous possibilities to classify the rhythms, especially out of the social context.

actually i just want to see what others think. i tend to agree with the 3 family model that i was taught and that you see above, but to classify all mande rhythms into that is problematic (and maybe defeats the purpose somewhat. i think if some of the masters in mali and guinea saw what we are discussing, they'd probably be sucking their teeth and shaking their heads )

yet, to do so is fun and to me it's an insight into the evolution of rhythms, just as much as to the musical distinctions (they are part of the same thing, don't you think?). we might not come up with all the answers, and i'm sure there'll be points we will agree to disagree on. but i am keeping a totally open mind on this.

right now, i'm struggling to understand bits of this discussion (after you started outlining rainer's distinctions, and daniel started relating it to upper guinean music...). yes, sound samples are needed to get a proper grasp of this!

first up, i'm going to focus on rainer's group A because that is to me very straightforward. in layman's terms, it's a swung binary rhythm. daniel, to you that would be more like balakulandian, etc rather than the kassa rhythms that tend to be played straighter. to me feeling the long:short pulse as related to a fairly straight ternary rhythm (particularly with a bell pattern like this: x - x x - x x - x x - x) comes completely naturally. i don't really need to think about it. i use the term 'fairly straight' as i am sceptical about any west african rhythm as being isochronous. but some are definitely a lot less swung than others.

before we take this any further, i'd like to try to get some things clarified with those four groups you mentioned.

group a: dansa, madan, jon, tansole. ok, the swung 4's.

group b: mendiani, suku, woloso (ok that's straightforward to me, except that daniel will not agree about suku). and this illustrates the switch between jon/woloso (binary/ternary) that you hear. also, in bamako to switch from dansa to woloso is often heard. i was told that mare sanogo was responsible for introducing that in the ballet, and it kind of took off from there. when you add tissiba do you mean tisanba?

group c: ngri (kirin), fula, bobo. this is why i wanted to focus on this group. there are the most amount of problems here, and even you don't mention many rhythms in this group. fula and bobo are obviously not mande rhythms, so we should probably leave them out altogether. daniel and i think maraka belongs here and rainer does not... the jina rhythms and burun i am not really familiar with. as for sunu, you must be referring more to the ternary part. sumale... it is very similar to garanke so shouldn't it be in group b?

what about sogonikun? does it belong in this third group? the latitude of this rhythm also kind of hints at this change from group a to c.

what does this tell us? that all rhythms are related?

group d: sunu, komo. i would put didadi in this category. but komo... this presents a problem since you put tansole in group a. i think komo should be in group a too. put didadi in group d instead.

another question for you: group c and d each have 3 possible types of swing... it's hard to know which one is supposed to fit which rhythm. would it be possible for you to list an example for each of these 6 swing types? thanks in advance.

if we can get a preliminary list of rhythms by category that we can sort of agree on, it would probably look like this:

1. dansa, fura, tansole, madan, jon, balakulandian
2. mendiani, dunungbe, woloso, konden
3. djaa, soko, djidamba, ngri, maraka (if not following rainer's model)

does sofa belong in the first group? because some would consider them more like kassa, others not. also, it's worth noting that quite a few masters don't divide the binary rhythms into two groups, despite the differences in swing (hence usually 3 groups).

possibly we can use this as a starting point and slowly add several others that we can agree on.

do we all agree on garanke being in the second group?

[bubudi]

(concerning phrazing you are right, by the way: Soli and Den are in the same group, but not concerning bell lines

ok i take it it's the sangban bell you are mainly refering to. let's look at the bell lines for the moment then...

soli: x.x.x.x.xx.x
mendiani: x.x.xx.xx.x.
really just a shift of the same

dunungbe: x.xx.x.xx.x.
similar

soko: xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx. so both a definite shift in feel, a very different bell line, as well as a longer cycle. it clearly doesn't belong, but soli... i'm not convinced it's out of place here.

but on second thoughts there is the other bell pattern for soko: x.x.x.xx.xx. which is again just a shift of the others. in conclusion, bell pattern can't be the only consideration in these groupings.

The Kensedeni is very often the same.

true, in general this is often irrelevant, especially when you consider the regional preferences for kensedeni. perhaps djidamba is an exception to this?

I don't know, if Sökö is played or has been played in regions where Maraka is played. It would never be played for the same festival.

no, i was talking about dja and soko, (not maraka and soko), and as far as i've seen they are played in different festivals. what's your experience?

I don't know where to put Dansa, I don't know it well enough (I think it's a Kasonka rhythm, so no good example at all for djembe/dundun music, isn't it?).

well we are talking about mande rhythms, and not all djembe rhythms started out on djembe (e.g. djaa, ngri, sofa and probably quite a few others). khassonke is mande and includes dunun, and tantango, which while distinct from the djembe, is a hand drum (no stick with the khassonke) that shares some basic characteristics. i would draw the line at fula, though.

do you know any examples of binary rhythms changing into ternary type B rhythms during fêtes?

in bamako, it happens most often with sunu but also jon and madan. with sunu it's an a-c shift but with the others it's usually an a-b shift.

In Hamana it makes more sense to start with the dunduns, because basically it's more dundun music than djembe music. This might be different in Bamako or other regions. Dansa is a Kasonka rhythm anyway, isn't it?

since the khasonke music is heavy on the dunun, i think this makes even more sense there.

i had a less in-depth discussion with rusty on this. he also mentioned bell patterns as being important, even though he's more into the mali music and most of those rhythms were traditionally without bell.

[e2c]

Yowza! You guys are in deep (which is one great thing about this board), but it sure would be nice to have a simplified version - with sound samples - for the rest of us! (Another great thing about this board!)

am anxious to see what bops has to say on this topic, though really, it is hard to follow the discussion without sound clips. (Hard for me, that is, and I suspect that's true for other readers as well.)

Carry on!

[Afoba]

(concerning phrazing you are right, by the way: Soli and Den are in the same group, but not concerning bell lines

ok i take it it's the sangban bell you are mainly refering to. let's look at the bell lines for the moment then...

soli: x.x.x.x.xx.x
mendiani: x.x.xx.xx.x.
really just a shift of the same

dunungbe: x.xx.x.xx.x.
similar

soko: xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx.xx. so both a definite shift in feel, a very different bell line, as well as a longer cycle. it clearly doesn't belong, but soli... i'm not convinced it's out of place here.

but on second thoughts there is the other bell pattern for soko: x.x.x.xx.xx. which is again just a shift of the others. in conclusion, bell pattern can't be the only consideration in these groupings.

OK Bubudi...
1) xx.xx.xx.xx. is always part of the Dya group
2) the Hamana Sökö Sangban bell line is the one you mentioned afterwards (not the mamady one d;-) )
3) you're absolutely right, it's a shift every time between the bell lines you mentioned. But a shift doesn't mean it's the same, in most cases it's just the opposite!
4) the "mendiani" bell line you mentioned is a quite rare bell line, but has become the Mendiani class bell line - no matter if for the Bamako version (without bell) or for the Hamana version (mostly different bell lines). I saw it only once in a video.
The Den Sangban bell that I usually play is x.xx.x.xx.x. so what you play for dundungbè (I play x.xx.xx.x.x. for dundungbè, like in Sangbarala, Kumana and Babila, but I've seen your version in Balato and Kouroussa - and some people do more than one thing). Most people who give classes around the world show "your" version.

So after all, your comparison does not show that Soli is close to Dundunba/Mendiani at all. Have a look, if you find other rhythms with the Soli Sangban bell...
I would classify (sorry for using the word "normal" here, that's a problem each time, but makes things easier here):
1 Dundunba, Konden (normal)
2 Den (quite normal)
3 Soli strange enough
all the three are part of the same swing group, but the swing is much stronger for Den and Soli than for Dundunba

what does this tell us? that all rhythms are related?

In a way: of course - a be kelen ! it's all one!

The Kensedeni is very often the same.

true, in general this is often irrelevant, especially when you consider the regional preferences for kensedeni. perhaps djidamba is an exception to this?

there are patterns that don't explain which group a musical piece is part of, like a downbeat Kensedeni and the following Sangban bell line: /x.x.x.x.x.x./ If it was a dundunba bell line, it would be the dya group (type C)

no, i was talking about dja and soko, (not maraka and soko), and as far as i've seen they are played in different festivals. what's your experience?

No, never. you're right!

I don't know where to put Dansa, I don't know it well enough (I think it's a Kasonka rhythm, so no good example at all for djembe/dundun music, isn't it?).

well we are talking about mande rhythms, and not all djembe rhythms started out on djembe (e.g. djaa, ngri, sofa and probably quite a few others). khassonke is mande and includes dunun, and tantango, which while distinct from the djembe, is a hand drum (no stick with the khassonke) that shares some basic characteristics. i would draw the line at fula, though.

OK, Bubudi, this is a misunderstanding. If you want to talk about "mande rhythms" (whatever this means), I'm off. Seriously, I beg you, leave out Kasonka, leave out Susu, it's different rules in some points! "Kasonka is mande" and "Tantango is a hand drum" are no basis to talk about rhythms categorizations. Sorry! I'm convinced there's no sense in mixing this up. Remember what Jürgen said about Rainer hesitating when asked for a further categorization: Just Bamako is already too much for us. And we're on the level here, where I say I don't count Soli/Suku as being in the dundunba/mendiani group and Jürgen says Rainer doesn't count Maraka in the type C group. If we mix it all up, we will end up saying "it's all african music" again (I exaggerate, of course). I think you know what I mean.

do you know any examples of binary rhythms changing into ternary type B rhythms during fêtes?

in bamako, it happens most often with sunu but also jon and madan. with sunu it's an a-c shift but with the others it's usually an a-b shift.

Right, but I was asking for a shift from binary to ternary. Acc. to what I remember from discussions with Juerg it's always the direction you mentioned here, too. I was now asking for the opposite direction.

In Hamana it makes more sense to start with the dunduns, because basically it's more dundun music than djembe music. This might be different in Bamako or other regions. Dansa is a Kasonka rhythm anyway, isn't it?

since the khasonke music is heavy on the dunun, i think this makes even more sense there.

If treated separately - of course!! Traditionally there is no djembe in kasonka music, I think, is there?

i had a less in-depth discussion with rusty on this. he also mentioned bell patterns as being important, even though he's more into the mali music and most of those rhythms were traditionally without bell.

well, we can talk about bell lines in Mali as we can talk about switching from ternary to binary and vice versa in Hamana/Gberedu - it doesn't exist (at least nowadays), but we might find out something interesting.


OK, let's continue tomorrow or maybe Saturday.
Good night, D

[Afoba]

Afoba wrote:do you know any examples of binary rhythms changing into ternary type B rhythms during fêtes?


in bamako, it happens most often with sunu but also jon and madan. with sunu it's an a-c shift but with the others it's usually an a-b shift.


Right, but I was asking for a shift from binary to ternary. Acc. to what I remember from discussions with Juerg it's always the direction you mentioned here, too. I was now asking for the opposite direction.

Sorry, Bubudy:
I was talking about type B (what I didn't wrte in my last post).
And you already said from madan to jon it's an A>B shift.
Still one question: I thought Jon and Madan were totally different rhtyhms. I understood by "rhtyhm shift" the changing of the same rhythm into another groupe binary to ternary or the other way round. In a way where you can say which part of the first version has become which part in the second version.

[djembefeeling]

damned, I shouldn't have given up on my ph.d.! now I'm to stupid to follow!

bubudi, since daniel lost me in his discussion: your points are better to comment on.

i am sceptical about any west african rhythm as being isochronous. but some are definitely a lot less swung than others.

Rainer as well. That's why he says Maraka is close to or almost isochronous.

also, in bamako to switch from dansa to woloso is often heard. i was told that mare sanogo was responsible for introducing that in the ballet, and it kind of took off from there. when you add tissiba do you mean tisanba?

oh yes, sorry for the typo. I do mean tisanba. I was thinking about the switch this day. Rainer has shown plenty of videos, but I couldn't rememeber where exactly I' ve heard it. My impression was that the switch from a binary to a ternary rhythm is very common for Malian music. But then I remembered having two videos from Mali where they switch from dansa into a type B rhythm: one is Drissa Koné playing for a dance class in Bamako, the other is Madou Fané, playing the exact same order of rhythms: first birea dansa/dansa sumalen, then the "classical" dansa that developed in Bamako in the 60s, after that the type B rhythm. I've also heard this has become a standard for the Ballet of Mali, it seems that Drissa adapted this.

sumale... it is very similar to garanke so shouldn't it be in group b?
(...) group d: sunu, komo. i would put didadi in this category. but komo... this presents a problem since you put tansole in group a. i think komo should be in group a too. put didadi in group d instead.
(...) another question for you: group c and d each have 3 possible types of swing... it's hard to know which one is supposed to fit which rhythm. would it be possible for you to list an example for each of these 6 swing types? thanks in advance.

I am on very thin ice, here. You would have to discuss this with Rainer Polak. I will try to lure him into this discussion, perhaps he has some spare time...

what about sogonikun? does it belong in this third group? the latitude of this rhythm also kind of hints at this change from group a to c.

??? sogonikun, isn't that a binary rhythm? why should we put it into group C??

soli: x.x.x.x.xx.x
mendiani: x.x.xx.xx.x.
really just a shift of the same

dunungbe: x.xx.x.xx.x.
similar

(...)but on second thoughts there is the other bell pattern for soko: x.x.x.xx.xx. which is again just a shift of the others. in conclusion, bell pattern can't be the only consideration in these groupings.

I don't think you can shift bell patterns as you like and then declare them as being the same. then you would get rid of all the differences there are. e.g. take your dunungbe bell, even with the dunun:
x.xx.x.xx.x.
......dd.d.

if you shift it, its the same as the dunun of djidamba:
x/x.x.xx.x.x.x/
d/d.d.......d/

that much is clear: there is no point in shifting bell lines. but for the rest of it -- daniel lost me. i think I have to read his post again at least 15 times to understand a bit more...

[Afoba]

hi Jürgen

since daniel lost me in his discussion.

I was in a hurry, and commented just a part of it. that's all, scusa!
D

[Afoba]

And I promise to try to be more clear then!

just one more thing:

But then I remembered having two videos from Mali where they switch from dansa into a type B rhythm: one is Drissa Koné playing for a dance class in Bamako, the other is Madou Fané, playing the exact same order of rhythms: first birea dansa/dansa sumalen, then the "classical" dansa that developed in Bamako in the 60s, after that the type B rhythm. I've also heard this has become a standard for the Ballet of Mali, it seems that Drissa adapted this.

I commented the same thing in Bubudi's post above, I think:
If this type B rhythm is not close to the binary rhythm played before, you leave or change the subject here. When I play concerts with Tolonba, I change from a ternary Dya rhythm to a binary Dya rhythm every second concert - but this is not our subject here!

There's a difference between changing from one rhythm to a rhythm of another rhythm group and changigng a rhythm into a rhythm of another rhythm group. But maybe I got you wrong? My knowledge of Malian rhythms is basical enough and I don't know half of the names you two mentioned here (ok, well, maybe the half...).

good night, D