Mali vs. Guinea Sunu

[djembefeeling]

Hi Michi,

I think your second closed stroke on the sangban is a pulse later. This way the sangban represents exactly the way the second konkoni is played in Mali:

Code: Select all

1...2...3...4...
b.bb.b.b.bb.b.b.
c..o.o.o..c.o.o.

[Daniel Preissler]

Sunu is not a part of this family of music. It can be confusing because there is a lead phrase that accompanies a dansa dance step that is the same hand pattern as the Sunu accompaniment. o o . s s . b s o o . s s . b s (notated for Sunu as: the first tone being the 16th note preceding the "1" - this hand pattern is often played: r l . r l . l r r l . r l . l r but in Dana it is played: l r . r l . l r l r . r l ) Even though they are both common time (4-4) rhythms they have distinct feel differences.

Hi Vagabon,
could you please make this clearer? Sunu is NOT part of which family of music? the apparently binary but normally ternary that you talk about? The way you put the hand pattern indicates exactly this: that it's not played the, well: "normal binary way".
I think it's a very interesting point and would be worth to be made clear.

Thank you!

[Daniel Preissler]

Sunu is a Malian rhythm (from Kayes). It has evolved somewhat since being adapted to jembe. As with many rhythms, there isn't necessarily one correct way to play it. I'm not familiar with a specifically Guinean version of Sunu. I do know that Mamady Keita included it in his book, but this is a watered-down arrangement IMO.

The 'swung' feel of Sunun that Michi referred to is part of its identity. Playing Sunu with a straight feel would be like taking the funk out of James Brown.

Very good point, Bops!!!
it's like in many discussions concerning african music: the question is already not the right one (sorry!).
There are probably different Mali versions, but there is no "Guinea version". If you use this term, you're talking about world music dicographies, but not about traditional music. Mamady's version (as I learnt it here) follows the Ivory Coast and Guinean modern ensembles technique:
"A rhythm without dundunba? But we also want to play the fat drum! Pity that we don't have a pattern for it (and that we don't know the function of that drum). Well let's play the Konkoni ("Sangban" - sorry, all you Mali guys, just to explain -) part on it." Very often they play the originally closed Konkoni strokes on the Sangban then. But they did "better" (in my opinion) here, using the second Konkoni's part (as Jürgen said) for the Sangban. A nicer music (and proving a better understanding of the music) would have been to "keep on" playing these patterns on Sangban and Kensedeni (the equivalents of first and second Konkoni AND of first and second Boté btw), when transmitted, and to play the downbeat on the dundunba, not on the Kensedeni (try it once, you will see it's nicer). They will do it this way, if it becomes a Hamana or Gberedu rhythm one day.

Have fun!

[Daniel Preissler]

Hello again,
without knowing much about the history of the rhythm and about malian bell lines (well...), I would like to tell you my thoughts concerning "logical" bell lines, if the rhythms played on (3) dunduns), paying attention to what Michi Jürgen and Duga have posted here.

kenkeni or sangban (depending on how it's arranged):
m xo o o xx o o

I would say the "logical bell line" is a bit different and Michi's "Dundunba" (first Konkoni) is not correct concerning the closed strokes. So here's my version d;-) (a bit too "fat" in my own opinion, it is two "Sangban"/first Konkoni patterns for my feeling, but I'll stay with what we had here).

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Sangban
1...2...3...4...
b.bb.b.bb.b.b.b.
c..o.o.o..(c).o.o.


Dundunba:

Code: Select all

1...2...3...4...
b.bb.b.b.bb.b.bb
o.oo...c..c.c..o


Kensedeni:

Code: Select all

1...2...3...4...
o...o...o...o...


And my "real Hamana version", that doesn't exist yet, but might appear 5 or 10 years from now:

Code: Select all

Sangban
1...2...3...4...
b.bb.b.b.bb.b.bb
o.oo...c..c.c..o


Dundunba:

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1...2...3...4...
b.b.b.b.b.b.b.b.
o...o...o...o...


Kensedeni:

Code: Select all

1...2...3...4...
....o.o.....o.o.


This allows to chage very nicely to the fast part:

Code: Select all

Sangban
1..2..3..4..
b.b.bb.b.b.bb
o.o..c.c.c.o


Dundunba:

Code: Select all

1...2...3...4...
bb.bb.bb.bb.
o..o..o..o..


Kensedeni:

Code: Select all

1..2..3..4..
...oo....oo.


o o x cx cx is not Sunu IMO, I think it's a Kuranko or Konya originated rhythm.

See you, D

[michi]

I think your second closed stroke on the sangban is a pulse later. This way the sangban represents exactly the way the second konkoni is played in Mali:

Code: Select all

1...2...3...4...
b.bb.b.b.bb.b.b.
c..o.o.o..c.o.o.

Yes, you are right. Thanks for the correction! I've edited my notation to match yours.

Michi.

[michi]

I would say the "logical bell line" is a bit different and Michi's "Dundunba" (first Konkoni) is not correct concerning the closed strokes.

Yes, I misplaced a mute, as Jürgen pointed out. I agree about the bell pattern. That's another viable option. (Generally, I have found that most teachers are not too particular about the bell pattern for many rhythms, as long as it is steady and makes sense.)

Cheers,

Michi.

[michi]

The 'swung' feel of Sunun that Michi referred to is part of its identity. Playing Sunu with a straight feel would be like taking the funk out of James Brown.

I agree. Here are two recordings to illustrate this a bit.

The following excerpt is from the soundtrack of Mamady's DVD "Guinée: Les Rhythmes Du Mandeng Volume 1". The part is played by Barbara Bangoura:

Sunun, Keîta.mp3

Sunun accompaniment, Guinea style

(428.69 KiB) Downloaded 284 times

And here is a snippet of Sunun played by Jeli Madi Kuyate and Madu Jakite:

Sunun, Kuyate-Jakite.mp3

Sunun accompaniment, Mali style

(457.61 KiB) Downloaded 281 times

Note the much stronger swing.

I've occasionally heard Sunun played with that swing so strong that it becomes almost pure ternary (with the handing to match ternary rather than binary).

Cheers,

Michi.

[Dugafola]

I've occasionally heard Sunun played with that swing so strong that it becomes almost pure ternary (with the handing to match ternary rather than binary).

Cheers,

Michi.

not sure if they do that in mali, but it's prevalent in Tambacounda. we play it like that a lot around here...especially in dance class.

[bops]

Hey, thanks Michi.

The Jaraba Jakite track is superb. Such a killer groove... great stuff.

That first clip, I'm not really feeling. It's like sauce without pepper or something. Too straight for my taste.

I've occasionally heard Sunun played with that swing so strong that it becomes almost pure ternary (with the handing to match ternary rather than binary).

Yeah, that's part of Sunu. Sometimes more, sometimes less... sometimes in-between or a little of both. Here's a snippet from Ibrahima Sarr et al, demonstrating that ternary feel you're describing. Although, it's still not straight ternary. It just has a feeling that's unique to Sunu.

Sarr Sunu.mp3

(1.22 MiB) Downloaded 276 times

[bops]

(with the handing to match ternary rather than binary).

I think I understand what you mean... the hands alternate between each stroke, rather than playing two strokes on the right... right? :) Notation, anyone? I'm scared to try.

This is the correct handing for the sunu accompaniment, IMO. It's very difficult to achieve the proper feel if you use the "hand to hand" method.

[bkidd]

michi wrote:
(with the handing to match ternary rather than binary).

it's funny that you put it this way michi. i don't typically thinking of handing going with binary or ternary. instead, i think of handing in terms of whether one plays:
1. hand over hand (keep strict time of subdivision with your hands)
2. alternating hands (alternate which hand hits the drum regardless of an underlying subdivision)

for example with the following binary and ternary patterns:

Code: Select all

binary
1 - - - 2 - - - 3 - - - 4 - - -
s - - s s - t t s - - s s - t t   : common binary pattern
r - - l r - r l r - - l r - r l   : hand over hand
r - - l r - l r l - - r l - r l   : alternating hands


Code: Select all

ternary
1 - - 2 - - 3 - - 4 - -
s - t s - - s - t s - -   : common ternary pattern
r - r l - - r - r l - -   : hand over hand
r - l r - - l - r l - -   : alternating hands


michi, maybe you can elaborate because it seems to me that handing comes about from (a) tradition, (b) tempo, or (c) feel. maybe the third one is what you're getting at with the ternary versus binary handing?

bops wrote:
I think I understand what you mean... the hands alternate between each stroke, rather than playing two strokes on the right... right? Notation, anyone? I'm scared to try.

it would be neat to seem some sort of notation on this. thanks for all the audio snippets.

[michi]

michi wrote:
(with the handing to match ternary rather than binary).

I think I understand what you mean... the hands alternate between each stroke, rather than playing two strokes on the right... right? Notation, anyone? I'm scared to try.

it would be neat to seem some sort of notation on this. thanks for all the audio snippets.

Here is an attempt…

I've used the "one-e-and-a, two-e-and-a, three-e-and-a, four-e-and-a" notation, so we have notionally 16 micro-pulses per bar. The micro-pulses are sub-divided into threes, so we have the triplet grid overlaying the entire bar, with 48 micro-pulses, taking up the same amount of time (3 x 16 = 48).

With pure binary placement, the pattern is:

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1..e..&..a..2..e..&..a..3..e..&..a..4..e..&..a..
t     s  s        s  t  t     s  s  b     s  t 
r     r  l        r  l  r     r  l  r     r  l 
1   2   3   4   5   6   1   2   3   4   5   6 


The handing naturally falls out as shown (and that is how Mamady teaches it).

For reference, I also marked the triplet pulse running across the bar underneath.

Here is what it sounds like when transcribed into Percussion Studio. This is very close to what Barbara plays on Mamady's DVD:

Sunun - Binary.mp3

Sunun - Binary, no swing

(471 KiB) Downloaded 249 times

We can also write the pattern using the triplet pulse. (The binary pulse is shown for reference underneath.):

Code: Select all

1...2...3...4...5...6...1...2...3...4...5...6...
t   s   s       s   t   t   s   s   b   s   t   
r   l   r       r   l   r   l   r   l   r   l
1  e  &  a  2  e  &  a  3  e  &  a  4  e  &  a 


The handing falls out as indicated but, of course, this loses the swing entirely, because everything is equally spaced.

Here is what this sounds like:

Sunun - Ternary.mp3

Sunun - Ternary, no swing

(479.76 KiB) Downloaded 256 times

So, neither notation captures how it's really played: the binary version swings it too much, the ternary version has no swing at all.

The way it is actually played is more like the following. I can't notate this precisely to scale because, to show it to scale with a constant-width font, I'd need a column width of 192, which isn't available. Instead, I'm showing a Percussion Studio screen grab with notes in red on the binary micro-pulse, and notes in green on the ternary pulse. The black notes are in places where the binary and ternary pulse line up:

Sunun - Binary/Ternary

PS.jpg (564.74 KiB) Viewed 473 times

Here is what that sounds like:

Sunun - Binary and ternary swing.mp3

Sunun - Swing using binary and ternary micro-pulses

(475.8 KiB) Downloaded 252 times

This is quite close to the actual feel, but still not quite right. It's possible to get a bit closer by advancing the first half of the bar and retarding the second half. Now the swing is more pronounced:

Sunun - Additional swing.mp3

Sunun - Binary/Ternary with additional swing

(472.4 KiB) Downloaded 259 times

Despite all this, the real thing still sounds a bit different. At this point, I'm at the limits of Percussion Studio and my limits as a musician.

I'm not sure how much all the above helps either. I mean, intellectualising about the music is all well and fine but, for me, it rarely gets me closer to the target. I can do this notation thing only after I have intuitively understood the music, and I can't re-create a feel from notation (only by listening and imitating), which makes the exercise kind of pointless (at least for me).

In my opinion, the best way to get it is the usual "listen and imitate", with feedback from your teacher.

Cheers,

Michi.

[bkidd]

Thanks Michi! Now I think I understand what you were getting at with the ternary and binary representations.

The above writeup was very helpful. I understand what you mean about intellectualizing and still missing the mark. I will say, however, that seeing and hearing these variations (both in the actual audio samples and the analytical breakdown you provided), gives me a greater appreciation of the subtle (or not so subtle) differences with the music. None of this replaces the actual work of "listen and imitate", but it gives me a framework for how to access the music.

Thanks,
-Brian

[iten]

hi,everyone!

do anyone knows the sunu lyrics? I saw the video on youtube when Paddy Cassidy perfomed Sunu whith dancers and song. The melody of the song is truly magic. And I really want to know the words and their meaning to learn this beautiful rhythm and song.




Thnx!

[bkidd]

That seems like a question for Paddy.