Dodgey Mendiani Sangban?

[bkidd]

haters are gonna hate.

quote of the day goes to duga.

[e2c]

It does trouble me that MK hasn't singled out any Malinke teachers from Senegal as keepers of the flame - at least, not that I know of. (I'm sure he knows some for whom he has high regard.)

I've asked both Famoudou and MK this exact question and they didn't offer any names. MK said that maybe there's probably a few old guys in the village that are still upholding the tradition. FK didn't say anyone...not even his sons or nephews. there are a few Masters that i think are doing an incredible job, but it's definitely not my place to say.

Interesting... many thanks for this, Duga!

[quote=bkidd]

One of the problems we are tackling is the issues that come up in trying to make generalizations about this variety with incomplete information at best. The approach that I like, and incidentally this is the one that MK himself uses, is to say "I learned this rhythm/song/dance from so and so, it's played with such and such instruments, and this is when or why it's played."

Exactly! Of course, no matter how emphatic a teacher is on these points, it's up to the students to actually hear and understand what the teacher is saying... and I think this (and other finer points) often get lost in translation (so to speak).

I think FK is very clear about this re. dunun rhythms.

[bkidd]

I think FK is very clear about this re. dunun rhythms.

Agreed.

I've definitely learned that he's not always totally clear about what is his creation/arrangement versus more traditional. FK creates (arranges) a lot of rhythms, which confuses me when I try to keep track of rhythms in terms traditional versus created/arranged/adapted. This is a minor point because FK always transparent about this distinction when asked, but he might sometimes forget to mention this when he introduces a rhythm. One thing that I learned from him last summer was that he created Baga Gine from Makru. It's obvious now when you hear the similarity in the dunun melody, but it was still fun to hear the creation story and play this with FK. One of the treats in getting a chance to study with FK.

Best,
-Brian

[e2c]

You lucky guy... someday, I'll be able to get to one of his workshops. Back in 2006, he taught one only 25 miles from here, but that was a year before I started taking djembe classes and I didn't know who he was at that time. (I've been studying percussion for a long time, but couldn't find a good teacher until 2007... Long story!)

Also... I'm one of those people who absolutely loves to hear and learn about where the music comes from, who plays it, how it's usually done in those places (including the fact that there are many local variations) and all of that. I've been fortunate in being able to study with a teacher who is passionate about learning as much as he can about background, variations and all of that, not just "This is x rhythm." (if/when i ever teach, I'll probably want to have a couple of maps available, just in case people want to know more... )

[djembeweaver]

In my experience pretty much every teacher I've ever had has slagged off any other teacher who plays things differently to them.

Mamady is amazing but I think he left his village when he was 14 so if "traditional" means pre-ballet village arrangements then I'm not sure he's the sole authority (I would've thought Famoudou has more of a clain to this).

I travelled round Guinea for a year playing with village musicians and real folas were rare (Fadouba was the only one for miles around when I was living in Kissidougou) so I'm not sure "traditional" knowledge even exists any more.

It's all very confusing.

[e2c]

Yes, it is confusing.

To a certain extent, I think there's a marketing thing going on with Western students...whoever claims the most "authenticity" wins, or something like that.

One thing about living (as opposed to dead, static) traditions is that they change. I've seen the term "ancient" (mistranslated, I guess, from ancien[ne], which means old/older) brandished in. re. some playing styles, where ancien[ne] might mean 25-50 years ago. (Not exactly what I think of as "ancient," but that might be partly due to my age... )

(I truly find it hard to believe that all the Senegalese teachers - there and over here - are "wrong"...)

[Michel]

I've spend 3 weeks in Senegal, around 14 days lessons with a teacher and uncle of my Senegalo/Malian teacher in Amsterdam. An example you'll find in the videosection (meet my Senegalese teacher). I came with a goal. My teacher over here teaches me versions of Malian rhythms they don't know in Mali. Sounded strange to me, so I went to the most likely source of this, his teacher.
During this stay I hooked up with this old guy and his ensemble of three. Playing in the villages on traditional programs like baptems and marriages, with a konkoni and two djembe's, the solo djembe being low tuned. I would call this very traditional.

After this stay I would conclude that everybody has his own tradition. I played sunu, ngri, marakadon, wolosodon, all Malian rhythms. Sometimes I only recognized the dunun pattern and the break. Sometimes some solophrases. But they had their own style. When I listened with them recordings from Mali with the same rhythms, they would call them different. A fast part that I know at the end of sunu they play for finishing ngri. Almost all ternary rhythms they call domba (quoi)

But the djembeplaying was really great, the people in the villages were glad we were there, and this ensemble is asked for all over senegal. And the leader Kantara Sakho (69!) was born in Kaarta, Mali, where he learned his things before coming to Senegal.

Sometimes I think rhythms change without them being aware of it. When you hear sabar and seourouba around you all the time, it must have some influences. At the end of our performances (when I was ready playing and put my drum away) they did some extra sabar rhythms on djembe's, for the youngsters. Still in a very traditional setting.

[e2c]

Michel, thanks so much for your perspective - it's invaluable.

Agreed on things changing without people consciously realizing it, and not just in Senegal - happens everywhere!

I don't know if you've ever read John Miller Chernoff's book on African rhythms (it's pretty focused on some Ghanian traditions), but one of his African teachers liked to emphasize that each person has their own "style." I think that's true.

[michi]

To a certain extent, I think there's a marketing thing going on with Western students...whoever claims the most "authenticity" wins, or something like that.

Not Mamady's fault (or whoever it happens to be). This effect you describe is real, no doubt, at least in some circles. But that's due to the western mindset of wanting "the truth" and a definitive story. Once people study this stuff in earnest, they realize quickly that it's all shades of grey, and that there is no such thing as the definitive version of a rhythm.

Heck, something that is not traditional today, if it keeps being played that way for long enough, will be traditional before long. One example that comes to mind is Kpanlogo from Ghana. That's not a traditional rhythm. (The rhythm was composed about 30 years ago.) But it's so popular now and so widely known that, in effect, it has become just about the signature rhythm of Ghanaian drumming.

(I truly find it hard to believe that all the Senegalese teachers - there and over here - are "wrong"...)

I don't think anyone tried to imply that all Senegalese are wrong, just some. At most, I think the implication of what was said earlier was that you are more likely to get an incorrect version of a Malinke traditional rhythm from someone from Senegal than, say, from Mali. (Little wonder, seeing that Senegal is right at the edge of the Malinke geographic distribution.)

The converse is true too, I have little doubt: I'm much more likely to get an incorrect version of a sabar rhythm from someone from Mali than I am from someone from Senegal…

But, keeping all this in mind, I think the line needs to be drawn somewhere. Otherwise, all the garbage that is being passed on by incompetent people ends up with the same standing as the rhythms passed on by the masters, and that wouldn't be right either. A few months back, someone posted this video (no longer available now) of Mendiani with the first open note of the sangban on the 1, and with the two djembe accompaniments (ka-dika and ka-kadidika) interlocking on the wrong side. Now, that is not Mendiani, no matter who the teacher is or where from.

I think part of the concern for many masters is that, every time someone changes a rhythm or doesn't remember it right, they are seeding the world with information that, ultimately, causes the traditional music to be lost. In a way, that's like thermodynamics: the masters try to hold back entropy but, no matter what they do, entropy eventually wins.

Another example is the word "djun djun" instead of "dunun". The Wikipedia article for dunun used to list "djun djun" as one of the names of the instrument. The term "djun djun" has never been used by the Malinke, there is no such word in the Malinke language, and the name is simply wrong. Some western guy probably started using it, thinking it sounded cool (or used it out of sheer ignorance).

Somehow, "djun djun" made it onto the Wikipedia page. When I researched this, I found hundreds of pages on various djembe sites that quoted "djun djun" as a valid name of the instrument. When I looked closer, I saw that many of them had copied the Wikipedia text verbatim or almost verbatim to flesh out the content of their website. In other words, one guy got it wrong once, the information ended up in the right place at the right time to be picked up and, before you know it, this rubbish has become the gospel truth because everyone copies from everyone else. (Google returns over two hundred thousand hits for "djun djun".)

Now, there is an argument to be made that, once a term has become so popular that it is in common use (even though once considered wrong), it becomes right and deserves to be recognized as a valid term and to be entered into the dictionary.

But the Mendiani and djun djun stories are also good examples about how teaching someone without coming from a base of competence can have far-reaching and damaging ramifications.

Cheers,

Michi.

[bkidd]

Michi wrote:
Some western guy probably started using it, thinking it sounded cool (or used it out of sheer ignorance).

Not to pick on Sengalese drummers any more than has already been done, but ironically, in my experience, the people I've heard using the word "djun djuns" to talk about "dununs" have been from Senegal or they are dancers who have danced for drummers from Senegal. It may simply be a case of mispronunciation because the word didn't exist in another culture. I know that I often have trouble pronouncing Malinke words (sometimes spelling helps but often it doesn't).

-Brian

[e2c]

So there are no Malinke drummers from Senegal who play their own local versions of Malinke rhythms correctly?!

That strikes me as being a ridiculous conclusion. We are taking one or two peoples' word for it rather than going over there and investigating for ourselves... which might be the only way anyone is ever going to get this straight. (Though I think Michel has some important things to say, a few posts up.)

While we're on the subject of spelling and pronunciation, I think "djembe" could be called into question - might be better written as "jenbe" on "jembe," but much depends on where the speaker comes from. (And who is doing the transcribing; the French "dj" being common with words from Arabic and Persian as well... And, just for fun, ask an Arab the proper pronunciation of "couscous." I can't really render it properly on the page, but it's more like "kuskus" - and a bit on the guttural side.)

fwiw, "djun djun" irks me too, but hey... could be an accent thing, to begin with, as Brian said.

[e2c]

michi wrote

But, keeping all this in mind, I think the line needs to be drawn somewhere.

Well, the question is, who gets to draw that particular line? One or two teachers who have made a career in the West, or people Back Home who have never left for Europe, the Americas, etc.?

I am also highly suspicious whenever the term "master" comes up - do they have some kind of board exams Over There? Who gets to decide who can legitimately use that title and who can't? Is playing in a ballet for a decade or so the gold standard - or is it something else, or...???

Again, I think there is marketing going on - to some extent, anyway - here in the West, and "master/master drummer" is bankable.

that's *not* to say that I disagree with the use of it in some cases, but... I'm not sure that a "master" whose primary work has been in the ballets is the same thing as a "master" who's spent most (or all) of his time playing fêtes.

The lack of distinction here in the West is a problem... see previous posts in this thread re. arrangements of traditional rhythms for the stage, etc. I see no problem with doing that, but it's just not the same thing as what's played in the village Back Home. Unless the folks in the villages are riffing on some of the ballet recordings they might hear, which is entirely possible and yet another illustration of the layers and layers of complexity involved re. this music - or any "traditional" music (from anywhere) when it's taken out of its immediate context.

There are definite parallels here with Western traditional musics; am thinking in particular of old ballads that were collected in England, Scotland and ireland that have been sung by generations of trad. - and folk, and (sometimes) pop singers. The thing here is that there is no single definitive version of any of these songs; you could spend a long, long time collecting local and regional variations. And then - if some contemporary folk group with non-trad. instrumentation and vocal style interprets a song well, their version actually is part of the ongoing, growing, larger tradition... (We have similar things here in the US with songs that originally came from the British Isles but are sung very differently - sometimes to different melodies - in *our* traditions, and then you can go to places like the Bahamas and hear some of these very old songs as interpreted by black singers and musicians and they both are and are not like the versions from the UK, and.... so on, ad infinitum - but all part of the continuum.)

[michi]

So there are no Malinke drummers from Senegal who play their own local versions of Malinke rhythms correctly?!

That strikes me as being a ridiculous conclusion.

Sorry, but I don't follow here. What do you mean by this? I don't think anyone suggested that?

While we're on the subject of spelling and pronunciation, I think "djembe" could be called into question - might be better written as "jenbe" on "jembe," but much depends on where the speaker comes from.

"Jimbe" is another one.

I'm aware of the sentiments mentioned by Eric Charry regarding the French spelling. However, "djembe" is by far the most commonly used spelling, so much so that any sentiments to spell it "jembe" are doomed at this point, I think.

We are taking one or two peoples' word for it rather than going over there and investigating for ourselves... which might be the only way anyone is ever going to get this straight. (Though I think Michel has some important things to say, a few posts up.)

[...]

The lack of distinction here in the West is a problem... see previous posts in this thread re. arrangements of traditional rhythms for the stage, etc. I see no problem with doing that, but it's just not the same thing as what's played in the village Back Home.

Right. I've heard Sunu played by Sega Cisse in Bamako, and I also heard it played by the national ballet in Bamako. They are so different, they might as well be two different rhythms…

But, keeping all this in mind, I think the line needs to be drawn somewhere.

Well, the question is, who gets to draw that particular line? One or two teachers who have made a career in the West, or people Back Home who have never left for Europe, the Americas, etc.?

Anyone with a reasonably strong background in this music. I don't have to be a master to know that Mendiani with the first open sangban stroke on the 1 and the two djembe parts interlocking the wrong way is no longer Mendiani.

The Mendiani example is extreme, and the issue can be more subtle. As an analogy (always dangerous ), is an instrumental cover version by James Last of "Eleanor Rigby" still the same song as the "Eleanor Rigby" by the Beatles? (Many people would emphatically say "no".)

Quite possibly the best way to decide is to ask the masters themselves. Run a poll or some such and ask "Is this version of rhythm X still rhythm X or do you think it has moved so far that it must be considered a different rhythm?" Take a consensus vote. (Possibly not useful because, depending on region and background, the answers from different masters may differ.)

Still, when Mamady tells me that Mendiani with the first open on the 1 is no longer Mendiani, I'm quite happy to take his word for it: one of the best djembe players in the world has just told me something. I'm not about to go and discard what he tells me, and I know Mamady well enough to be sure that he isn't saying this out of some need to boost his standing or put down the competition, but because he honestly believes it. And, let's face it: Mamady has forgotten far more about djembe playing than all of us put together will ever learn…

I am also highly suspicious whenever the term "master" comes up - do they have some kind of board exams Over There? Who gets to decide who can legitimately use that title and who can't? Is playing in a ballet for a decade or so the gold standard - or is it something else, or...???

The title "master" is normally bestowed by other masters. Once a player plays well enough, knows enough, and has enough experience in the opinion of his older established peers, they start calling him "master". At that point, he's a master.

Unfortunately, there is no guild or other formal qualification that would establish mastership, so anyone can call themselves "master" without having to have learned a thing, and without being accountable to anyone, just like anyone can call themselves a "djembe teacher", no matter how incompetent they might be.

I know of one person where I live who bills himself as a "master djembefola". The truth of the matter is that I'm a better djembe player than him (in terms of timing and precision, as well as in technique) and I am a long, long way way from being a master. But the guy is black and, because of that, him calling himself a master is far more likely to go unchallenged by "un-"cognoscenti than if I did it, even though I play better. (If I called myself a "master", I'd be rightfully ridiculed…)

Again, I think there is marketing going on - to some extent, anyway - here in the West, and "master/master drummer" is bankable.

Yes, definitely. That's exactly why this guy calls himself "master". It helps to fill his classes…

I know of many other cases that are similar. In fact, the guy with his abomination of Mendiani was also billed as a "master", and he was clearly clueless.

that's *not* to say that I disagree with the use of it in some cases, but... I'm not sure that a "master" whose primary work has been in the ballets is the same thing as a "master" who's spent most (or all) of his time playing fêtes.

Right. There are different kinds of masters from different styles and historical periods. Sega Cisse's playing is very different from Famoudou's, but but both are masters.

In general though, I think once someone has made it to lead drummer of one of the national ballets, the label "master" is probably quite justified and well-earned

If you really want a definition, anyone who pushes into the 99th percentile or higher among his peers in terms of skill, experience, and knowledge probably qualifies. But that is true for any given peer group, so that definition is lacking too. (By this definition, to my students, I'm a master…)

Cheers,

Michi.

[bkidd]

Mastery of anything requires a lot of time and effort. In addition, mastery is often super specific and doesn't translate into other skills, e.g. one might have mastered playing particular djembe rhythms, solos, breaks, arrangements. This doesn't mean one is knowledgeable in history, culture, dance, etc. Furthermore, this may or may not mean that one is a master teacher.

The term master is a hackneyed term these days. Many people use it for marketing so they can fill classes or workshops. What's unfortunate is that the term is vague and allows people to fill in whatever preconceptions they might have about a "master".

Best,
-Brian

[e2c]

Brian - preach it, bro!