Djagbe/Djagba/Madan

[Carl]

Just listening to the recording Michi made of Mamady demoing Djagbe.

It sounded like the kenkeni was playing on the pulse. I thought it was supposed to be the upbeat to downbeat like this

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o . . o o . . o

Any clarification from anyone?

Thanks,
Carl

[Dugafola]

this is the djagba version commonly heard in Hamanah/Gberedu area. you can hear it on FK's Rhythm der Malinke.

[Carl]

D-

Is there any other difference besides the kenkeni?

I'll check out RdM.

Edit:

Ok, I'm listening now. Seems like the dununs are pretty different. I feel something that is like the dununba from Mamady's book, but not the sangba part. In the demo that Michi posted Mamady was playing the solo that I understand to be for the Djagbe that I 'know'.

So at this point, I'm assuming the rhythms are regional variations on the same dance/ritual. ?

Since Mamady's solo was the same over the "djagba" version I assume that the dance would be the same/similar for each rhythm? or is the naming more related to the ritual use?

C

[Dugafola]

sangban and dununba are different.

sangban phrase is what the djagbe dununba is playing. kenkeni on the pulse.

djembe accomps are the same. dununba is different.

[Carl]

Listiening to Madan from Moussa Traore's Mali Foli.

Seems like yet another set of dunun parts.

I guess my question is, what ties all of these together besides the djembe accomp.?

It seems like it is a Tabaski thing, but that sound pretty generic, like saying it is for the full moon festivals. Any detail on what ties them together across the regions/ethnic groups?

C

[Dugafola]

from what i've learned and seen, it's very much played at Tabaski in upper guinea. I think the overall consensus is that it's a popular celebration rhythm all over, but it's definitely a more prevalent rhythm in Bamako.

regarding Moussa's version on Mali foli, there are a couple versions of rhythms on that disc that don't sound like anything i've ever heard coming out of Mali...the ngri and madan included.

[Carl]

I hear ya.

This is a good example of one of the problems I am facing right now; I am looking into various versions of different rhythms. Or to put it more clearly, different rhythms with the same name.

About half of the time, there is some reason for the difference, usually regional. One group is using the rhythm the same way that their neighbors are, but they are just playing a different set of dunun parts. Or someone will write a new tune based on the "origional".

However every now and then I come across distinct rhythms with the same name with no other connection. I wonder if my understanding of the languages would help with this.

(Ngri is another one of those names... I'd have to look into it, but I think I have about 4 distinct versions of it on various CDs...)

Part of the problem is that some people clarify that the version that they are playing is different from other peoples version (either by region, or original composition), but others just put it out there with no clarification. From their perspective it is probably clear what they are doing, but when trying to figure it out from the other side of the ocean it gets pretty confusing!

I was playing a tune that I called "taama" for about 2 years before I played it for Mahiri and confused the hell out of him... after a bit of research and a couple of calls we figured that what I was playing was a variation written by Famoudou Konate (found on percussions et chants Vol 2) it was strongly based on the "original" Taama as played in the Hamanah region. The two versions are very similar, Famoudou just took the original, split it in half, and repeated each half twice. This changes the dance feel quite a bit, and makes the placement of the "end" of the solo techniques a lot more tricky.

Anyway, enough 'lunch hour ramblings' I have a drum to tune...

C

[Dugafola]

D-
So at this point, I'm assuming the rhythms are regional variations on the same dance/ritual. ?

Yes.

Since Mamady's solo was the same over the "djagba" version I assume that the dance would be the same/similar for each rhythm? or is the naming more related to the ritual use?

C

lately, mamady has been using djagba to teach/demo his djagbe phrases. in guinea, there's not a whole lot of "traditional' dance moves. it's more villagey old school grooving than anything. BKO is where you'll find more dance moves for Madan.

Part of the problem is that some people clarify that the version that they are playing is different from other peoples version (either by region, or original composition), but others just put it out there with no clarification. From their perspective it is probably clear what they are doing, but when trying to figure it out from the other side of the ocean it gets pretty confusing!

i know what you mean. my experience is that when working with certain teachers/masters, knowing their own personal playing history helps a lot when figuring out what/why they are teaching what they are. for instance, FK only teaches rhythms from Hamanah/Gberedu. Mamady teaches from all over guinea, some mali, some ivory coast because that's been his experience. someone like Bolokada teaches primarily faranah/sankaran stuff...all unique to him/his region. same goes for Wadaba. i think with the big djembefolas with village roots, it's easy to figure out that what they are teaching is most likely unique to their region. with the younger ballet drummers, it's alot harder to discern because a bulk of what they learn will be from the big cities and ballets...hence, more confusion.

I was playing a tune that I called "taama" for about 2 years before I played it for Mahiri and confused the hell out of him... after a bit of research and a couple of calls we figured that what I was playing was a variation written by Famoudou Konate (found on percussions et chants Vol 2) it was strongly based on the "original" Taama as played in the Hamanah region. The two versions are very similar, Famoudou just took the original, split it in half, and repeated each half twice. This changes the dance feel quite a bit, and makes the placement of the "end" of the solo techniques a lot more tricky.

i've worked Taama 2x with Famoudou and he's taught it to me the 2 different ways you are describing. he says that traditionally, it's the shorter "one & one" sangban phrase. he said that he modified it to double up for two reasons: to help students learn the melody and because he just liked playing it that way overall.

when we did the demonstration for taama last year, he had me play the "traditional" sangban phrase.

[Carl]

Excellent points over all. I wish I had more exposure to classes. Having Mahiri come up twice a year can get frustrating!

I'm really jonesin' for a class fix with nothing on the horizon for two months!

BKO = ???

when we did the demonstration for taama last year, he had me play the "traditional" sangban phrase.

When Mahiri showed me the 1 x 1 version, it tripped me up bad! I get it now, and it makes some of the traditional dununba solo techniques a bit easier, but I am still partial to the doubled up version...

C

[e2c]

Hamanah style: bring it on!

I've also been puzzled by some of the tracks on Mali Foli. Glad to know I'm not the only one.

Speaking of class fixes, I need one, too... and now M'bemba Bangoura and Youssouf Koumbassa are teaching every week in Philly. Once the weather gets a bit better, I'm there.

[bubudi]

Just listening to the recording Michi made of Mamady demoing Djagbe.

It sounded like the kenkeni was playing on the pulse. I thought it was supposed to be the upbeat to downbeat like this

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o . . o o . . o

that's it in half time. this is more like it:

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o.....o.o.....o.

michi's recording is of djagba - that's the way they play it in hamanah.

Since Mamady's solo was the same over the "djagba" version I assume that the dance would be the same/similar for each rhythm? or is the naming more related to the ritual use?

there are trad dance steps/solo phrases to some rhythms but not all rhythms. some are more 'solo dance' style, where one or sometimes two people go into the circle at a time. djaa and fankani come to mind. in the big cities you can also see this style prevailing in dances that traditionally are done as a group or at least have a set choreography. possibly it's because this more freestyle format is appreciated more in the capital cities, but i suspect it's a lot to do with the young folk going to school and missing out on a lot of traditional education, and this has happened across many generations now so in the capital cities it's mostly the ballet trained dancers that know some traditional dance steps (and often it's a melange of moves from 2 or more different dances).

as for djagbe/madan, it's most popular in bamako and mande area of southern mali. you will see a version of the rhythm in the hamana area, and another down south guinea near the forest which is more like how they play it around odienne (ivory coast). there they call it yagba. the rhythm is not played much in the rest of west africa.

I guess my question is, what ties all of these together besides the djembe accomp.?

the sangban line usually defines the rhythm. in mali it's often the konkoni playing this line. some versions take the sangban melody and put it on the dununba. ballet style either takes the sangban melody and applies it to all 3 vertical dunun, or it creates a hybrid of the 3 dunun that can be easily played by one person. either way, you can hear the melody.

also, with some rhythms you'll hear the traditional solos across regional versions of the same rhythm. these solos also help define the rhythm.

However every now and then I come across distinct rhythms with the same name with no other connection. I wonder if my understanding of the languages would help with this.

can you give us any examples?

i have definitely seen the opposite, where there are same or extremely similar rhythms being given different names. some examples include: djagbe/madan, soli/suku.

nice discussion. i wish you guys would invest similar energy into the rhythm of the month discussion.

[Carl]

can you give us any examples?

i have definitely seen the opposite, where there are same or extremely similar rhythms being given different names. some examples include: djagbe/madan, soli/suku.

nice discussion. i wish you guys would invest similar energy into the rhythm of the month discussion.

Saddly, no examples right now (I'm at work and while I do have a lot of my CDs in my itunes here, by far not all of them) I'd have to really sit down and find them...

Agree about same rhythm having different names...

Can't really contribute to the rhythm of the month as I don't know the tune, but I have been lurking and following the discussion.

Thanks for your feedback on this, especially the "regional overview".

Gotta get back to work!

C

[Dugafola]

nice discussion. i wish you guys would invest similar energy into the rhythm of the month discussion.

yea sucks doesn't it.

[e2c]

with respect, b, I'm glad this particular discussion is going forward. Not sure it's wise to try and push people, really.

i wish I had something to add to both this thread and the one on lamban, but I don't.

[Carl]

Just a thought about the study group and this thread...

I had a pretty focused question to begin with, "why is there a difference between these 3 rhythms?" It lead to the usual digressions, but because I was focused on one issue, it was easy to keep things related to the initial question.

Even with the guidelines we made for the study group, it does end up being a "let's talk about everything we know about this rhythm" discussion.

This group tends to make every question an "open ended" question. Personally, I think that is a good thing, however it does make it hard to organize, and sometimes participate.

Not sure exactly what to take from this. One thought was to have more threads under the study group heading. For example, someone was asking for parts (dj/dunun), I believe that it was in the main thread for the song. All it would take would be for someone to post a few more videos for that one entry to get lost. However, if it was it's own thread, it would be easier to notice.

If we could have some "end oriented" threads to go with the open ended threads, that might help us cover all of the ground that we would like.

Sometime later I might post some suggestions for open ended and end oriented threads to help the discussion along... (still at work, still slacking off....)

C