Ghost notes ?

[wonderwebb]

I posted a topic quite sometime ago on filling in and have now come to discover that these are ghost notes.
I have never been taught these and am not sure wether or not I need to. I have seen a lot of drummers use them when there is space to fill. Is this because they have come from a kit background ? I've always thought they added something to the rhythm but have never been sure how to put them in . I learn a rhythm through singing the song my problem comes with the ghost notes because if I sing these in my head they then are played to loud on the drum and they are no longer ghost notes but a full note hmmmmm? I don't even know if I'm embarking on a bad move by trying to learn them. I just came back from a week long workshop and had the chance to watch a lot of different people drumming and saw quite a few people that seemed to be hitting the drum twice as much as me for the same rhythm which I'm assuming were ghost notes. Can't quite get my head round whether it's good practice or bad habit!

Views comments and advice welcome on this topic please
Cheers wonderwebb

[Djembe-nerd]

Is this because they have come from a kit background ?

Maybe, I never use ghost notes. I don't come from a kit background and I also don;t count.

[Dugafola]

some thoughts on ghosting...

you'll see a lot of jembefola use ghost notes when they are doing jembekan. it adds another layer of sound and more texture to the solo.

i would not practice 'ghosting' at all if you are just starting out. learn the basic accompaniements played with clean technique and gradually work up your speed. ghosting will come naturally over time.

ghosting is a waste of energy if you're playing for a dance class, rehearsal or performance.

based on the handing i've learned as the "mandingue system" from my teacher, ghosting can be accomplished by playing a lot of the popular accompaniements "hand over hand." for example: [bass tonetone slap] and [slapslap tonetoneslap]. try playing those phrases with the "traditional" handing but start adding in "hand over hand" ghost notes...you'll be ghosting in no time while still staying true to the "correct" handing.

it has nothing to do with drumkit playing.

[michi]

All my teachers have discouraged ghosting for normal playing. For one, it adds a lot of extra movement that wastes energy, so you tire sooner. Second, there are some patterns that are best played outside the underlying L-R grid because you would otherwise overwork one side. Third, the ghost notes smear out the sound because all the silences get filled with all the taps. As Duga said, this can be used to good effect during a djembe kan, where one djembe has to do all the heavy lifting and you want a richer sound. But, for accompaniments, all my teachers have frowned on this.

That's not to say that ghosting is outright "wrong" in all circumstances. But it should be used sparingly and not during ensemble play.

I recently spent some time drumming with someone who was ghosting all the time. The person was unable to play something as simple as passport without ghosting. It got really annoying after a while because the continuous pitter-patter where there should have been silence really spoiled things.

The ghosting also makes it difficult to play certain parts that have swing. For example, the passport accompaniment for Soboninkun is swung so the tones are closer to 12/8 timing, but the slaps stay closer to 4/4 timing. Players who compulsively ghost all the time find it hard to play such parts.

So, be wary of ghosting—it's easy for it to turn into a crutch that, later, you wish you had never touched.

Cheers,

Michi.

[bops]

Try listening to some donso music (Paul just posted a nice video here), and play the rhythm that you hear in the strings, using only soft touches on your drum. No tones, no slaps, no bass. Practice this... a lot. It will help you to be a better accompanist.

You don't necessarily need to hear or see the ghost notes when you're playing, but you should feel the continuous movement of your hands, even on rests. Drumming is like dancing.

[Waraba]

Yeah, that's a good point about feeling movement in your hands. When I let them float during rests, the result is pretty good.

[michi]

You don't necessarily need to hear or see the ghost notes when you're playing, but you should feel the continuous movement of your hands, even on rests. Drumming is like dancing.

Not wanting to start an argument but, as general advice, is this really the right thing? For many rhythms, accompaniments are played with handing that corresponds to the ghosting. (Even if there is no actual ghosting, the left-right pattern is determined by what you would hit with if you were ghosting.)

Mamady teaches many accompaniment patterns that way, even to the point where I think "Well, yes, I understand, but I'd still play this off the ghosting to avoid over-working on side too much." Other teachers have a different philosophy. For example, Mamady insists that people play the standard ternary accompaniment "s.ts..s.ts.." as "r.rl..r.rl..". But other teachers insist on the ballet handing: "r.lr..r.lr..".

But for some accompaniments, playing them on the ghosting is simply impossible without killing one side (usually the right side), and you have to move away from the ghosting.

So, my question is whether the recommendation to pay that much attention to the ghosting (to feel the ghosting at all times) is really such a good one. I have come across more than one person over the years who, when presented with a pattern that has to be played with non-standard handing, has serious problem. Inevitably, these people are what I call "compulsive ghosters".

Paddy, don't get me wrong: it's perfectly fine to feel the ghosting internally and for most rhythms, playing them on the ghosting makes it easier to stay locked in and to maintain precise micro-timing. But, on the other hand, I think that a truly good player shouldn't have to rely on the ghosting and should be comfortable playing any pattern with just about any handing. (Even Mamady does this sometimes, when he demonstrates playing passport with at least ten different handings, some of them utterly ridiculous )

I have a suspicion that "being slave to the ghosting" is an undesirable thing...

Cheers,

Michi.

[bubudi]

[...] for most rhythms, playing them on the ghosting makes it easier to stay locked in and to maintain precise micro-timing.

i disagree. i would say the hand-to-hand makes many rhythms easier to keep microtiming for some rhythms (only initially though, because with sufficient practice you could just as well nail the microtiming with another handing). but not when you ghost. ghosting makes microtiming much harder to achieve.

I'd still play this off the ghosting to avoid over-working on side too much.

that's a good point. some teachers will argue that no matter what, your dominant hand will be stronger, therefore it's better to take advantage of it. others will say you need to work your non-dominant hand more (using certain warm-up exercises, even starting the accompaniments with the opposite hand so as to work the non-dominant hand more). some accompaniments are hard to keep sweet with the hand-over-hand. picture a ridonkeylously (fali in malinke ) fast mendiani or soko rapide and having to play the pa ti pa as r-r-l. it's just sweeter sounding and less tiring to play that with alternate handing. different handings have their place.

[e2c]

Try listening to some donso music (Paul just posted a nice video here), and play the rhythm that you hear in the strings, using only soft touches on your drum. No tones, no slaps, no bass. Practice this... a lot. It will help you to be a better accompanist.

You don't necessarily need to hear or see the ghost notes when you're playing, but you should feel the continuous movement of your hands, even on rests. Drumming is like dancing.

I like these ideas - especially the ones in bops' 1st graph.

[michi]

[...] for most rhythms, playing them on the ghosting makes it easier to stay locked in and to maintain precise micro-timing.

i disagree. i would say the hand-to-hand makes many rhythms easier to keep microtiming for (only initially though, because with sufficient practice you could just as well nail the microtiming with another handing). but not when you ghost. ghosting makes microtiming much harder to achieve.

That's interesting. Personally, I find playing on the ghosting easier (provided it doesn't over-work one side too much) because the dominant hand plays the pulse and the up-beats, and the non-dominant hand plays the off-beats (for a binary rhythm, that is). Having the dominant hand on the pulse seems to helps me to stay locked in. Having said that (and having worked a lot on developing my left hand), I now depend on that nowhere near as much as I used to.

Still, when I hear a new accompaniment for the first time and try to play it, my first attempt usually follows the ghosting. It's only if that turns out to be too tedious to play that I modify the handing.

some accompaniments are hard to keep sweet with the hand-over-hand. picture a ridonkeylously (fali in malinke ) fast mendiani or soko rapide and having to play the pa ti pa as r-r-l. it's just sweeter sounding and less tiring to play that with alternate handing. different handings have their place.

Yes, that's another issue with strictly playing something on the ghosting. When things get really fast, alternate hands can be much easier.

Cheers,

Michi.

[bubudi]

michi, i think we're talking about two slightly different things. you are grouping ghosting and hand-over-hand as one thing, whereas i separate them. hand-over-hand does not require ghosting at all, although it is in essence playing the accompaniment as if you were ghosting.

i can see why hand-over-hand is easier for you to lock in, but my point about the microtiming is that it's a lot harder to get the subtle changes in swing when you ghost (and even when you use hand-over-hand, with some rhythms). ghosting tends to make things sound straighter.

[bops]

I have a suspicion that "being slave to the ghosting" is an undesirable thing...

Yeah, being a slave to anything is not good. All things in moderation.

So, my question is whether the recommendation to pay that much attention to the ghosting (to feel the ghosting at all times) is really such a good one.

No, but I understood the OP's question to be whether or not to practice playing ghost notes. My answer is yes. If you don't practice something, you'll never get it. Doesn't mean you need to do it all the time.

ghosting tends to make things sound straighter.

Then I would say that your ghosting pattern is straight. Try playing it with feeling, like you hear in the donso or wasulu music.

[bops]

Who posted this one? This is a great example:

[bubudi]

thanks bops, i can play ghost notes with plenty of swing. my point is that it requires more effort and is actually not desirable for accompaniment playing. soloing is another thing altogether, although usually the volume of the ensemble is such that you wouldn't hear the ghost notes anyway. so it's more useful for djembekan, or as part of solo djembe playing in a non-djembe ensemble, with other instruments. in those contexts it can add a great deal of texture as well as hold the beat nicely for the listeners in the absence of other drums.

[bops]

Yes, I agree with what everyone has said re: trying to play ghost notes within accompaniments, or playing ghost notes within a solo over a full ensemble. Not necessary.

My point was simply about practicing. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse the two.