No "edit post" option available?

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e2c · by **e2c** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:09 pm

For me, anyway, since sometime late last evening Eastern Daylight Time (US).

Maybe some admin settings on the board software need to be tweaked?

* Even weirder: it is showing for this post, but not for others, in other threads - ???

michi · by **michi** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:18 pm

Seem like something has changed. Looking at my posting history, I also don't get an edit button for my posts. (I didn't check all of them, but the few I did look at no longer have an edit button.)

[Added by editing: But I did get an edit button on this latest post.]

Cheers,

Michi.

bubudi · by **bubudi** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:09 pm

there's a time limit of 12 hours for editing a post which i think is a very reasonable time frame to catch an error (a lot of forums have a much shorter time limit). in the past people could edit posts endlessly which occasionally would make an entire thread unreadable. if the purpose of an edit is to add info rather than correct an error, then a new post is more appropriate.

e2c · by **e2c** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:54 pm

may we ask why this policy has been instituted? have people been abusing the "edit post" function recently?

also... with respect - I have belonged to about 10 forums over the past few years and am currently active in 5. None of them has time limits for post editing. I do know of one that has - at times - put temporary time limits on post editing due to excessive flaming by a handful of members. After the issues were resolved, post edit settings reverted to normal.

I personally like to be able to go back and fix typos, if only because I make a lot of them... and sometimes I don't catch them until well after the time limit you're proposing.

It would (imo) be helpful for people to be able to add information (like citations of sources) in older posts. Not sure what could possibly be "inappropriate" about that...

Also: I've inadvertently double-posted at times when the forum (or my connection) has been running slowly, and with this time limit, there is no way to be able to edit or delete duplicate posts. (i've tried.) and I'm sure I'm not the only person who has had this problem.

Would you and James please reconsider these time limits, etc.?

To be honest, this feels a bit like we're being treated like children who can't be trusted with basic responsibilities - to me, at least. (Especially knowing that anyone with moderator privileges can alter their own posts - and those of others - at any time. at least, that's true of most board software, though obviously, i'm not sure what defaults you've set here...) If people here were flaming one another constantly, you'd (imo) have a point, but I don't see that happening...

Just my .02-worth.

michi · by **michi** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:03 pm

e2c wrote:I personally like to be able to go back and fix typos, if only because I make a lot of them... and sometimes I don't catch them until well after the time limit you're proposing.

[...]

It would (imo) be helpful for people to be able to add information (like citations of sources) in older posts. Not sure what could possibly be "inappropriate" about that...

Also: I've inadvertently double-posted at times when the forum (or my connection) has been running slowly, and with this time limit, there is no way to be able to edit or delete duplicate posts. (i've tried.) and I'm sure I'm not the only person who has had this problem.

I second that request. I also go back and fix typos and such, or add a note to an older post. I think we can trust our users to not go and completely change the content of a previous post, and it hasn't been a problem in the few months I've been participating here.

Cheers,

Michi.

e2c · by **e2c** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:23 pm

What michi said.

yes, there are lots of boards out there with super-strict policies due to the way members flame, troll, edit and re-edit posts to get away with posting objectionable content and then making it disappear (etc. etc. etc.).

But this is not one of those boards, thankfully.

I'm just not sure what purpose such restrictive rules could - or would - serve here. We're adults, and we (mostly

) act like adults, not bratty schoolkids.

Please cut us a break!

michi · by **michi** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:12 pm

e2c wrote:I'm just not sure what purpose such restrictive rules could - or would - serve here. We're adults, and we (mostly ) act like adults, not bratty schoolkids.

Please cut us a break!

I fully agree. I don't think it's necessary to restrict editing just for the rare occasion where a poster edits their own posting inappropriately. And, if such a thing happens, I think other means could be used to deal with it, similar to how the board deals with postings with inappropriate content.

I'd also prefer to see the edit feature reinstated.

Cheers,

Michi.

bubudi · by **bubudi** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:46 am

wow, so much discussion in 1 day...

i reckon it wouldn't take much to reach consensus on this one. we're still pretty casual here, so you can breathe easier! i'm all ears!

i agree the vast majority of people wouldn't abuse this feature. the question is, how long do you really need to catch a typo? let's try to agree on a reasonable time frame. any suggestions?

the times when post editing may become a problem are:

person breaches etiquette and then edits/deletes the evidence - a breach would mean contravening any of the rules and not just flaming/trolling.
person writes something incorrect and then edits it after a certain amount of discussion - there will be no logical flow to the discussion since it refers to a statement that no longer exists.
original poster edits or deletes message. in this case the whole purpose/main content of the topic is lost.

i've seen examples of all the above on this site in the past. it's not common, but it leaves problems.

once a post is edited, the changes cannot be undone by admin/mods, so the damage remains.

as for adding links and afterthoughts to replies, it's nice to be able to add them to a post as an edit, but it's also possible to just post them in a new message in the same thread. breaking your post up into 2 or more posts can be a good thing. if you make a long post the fact is most people read the first couple of lines and then skip the rest. a few shorter ones will therefore often get your message across to a much larger audience.

e2c · by **e2c** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:36 pm

I still don't see the "problem" at this point, or - come to that - any need for a time frame for editing. (But that's just me.)

*if* people are flagrantly abusing the post editing option - then a temporary (or possibly permanent) adjustment is in order. But is that actually happening at this point?

I did write to James about this off-list, and he seemed to mainly be concerned with spammers having the ability to edit their posts, which is completely different to the scenario you're proposing.

Now, if you guys need some admin help with spam-killing, that's another thing entirely, and I very much see the point of it, but this post editing thing... nope. This seems (if I might use a cliche) to be putting the cart before the horse, no?

* Also, fwiw, I used to do proofreading professionally, and can tell you from that experience that catching others' mistakes is easy, one's own, not so much. (At least, judging by how many of my own I tend to miss, over and over, even now - sometimes weeks or months after the fact. and yeah, I *am* that compulsive about doing my own edits!

)

e2c · by **e2c** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:54 pm

Also, I'm surprised re. what you're saying about the board software (no editing by mods/admins), if only because I belong to three other boards that use this same software - and mods/admins there *can* edit (and delete) posts.

Is this (possibly) a less full-featured version of phpBB? (And, if so, might it be possible for us to donate $ toward an upgraded software package?) I know that a lot of customizations are possible, and that a lot are in effect here, although I have no idea how that all works... Maybe there's something in the admin settings that can be tweaked to help you deal with objectionable content in a more effective way?

fwiw, vBulletin and IVP Board Pro (the biggies prior to the advent of phpBB) certainly do have those options (mod/admin editing and deleting) as part of their default settings. I actually can't imagine *not* having that available in the admin control panel, because it's often necessary (if only for spam killing)....

I'm not at all unsympathetic to your concerns, bubudi, and I know that there's a lot of behind-the-scenes work for mods/admins that most board users never know about. (Precisely because they've not held those positions anywhere.) My own feeling is that it's a thankless task, for the most part, if only because most aren't aware of the time and dedication it takes to keep any board running smoothly.

*

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but it does seem like you fellas might need some assistance with weeding out the spam posts... if so, why not ask for volunteers so that coverage is a bit better; also so that it's not all resting on your shoulders?

e2c · by **e2c** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:15 pm

My one other thought is this:

If you guys need to make some major, global changes (due to whatever), would it be possible for you to give us a heads-up as to what's happening, and (if possible) why?

i came across the settings change more or less by accident, and assumed it was unintentional, maybe something that needed to be corrected, having to do with other changes to the site/board.

That's why I started this thread (obviously)!

It wasn't meant as a protest against apparent "unfair" moderation.

Might it be possible to go back to square 1 on this and start over?

cheers,
e.

bubudi · by **bubudi** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:05 am

e2c wrote:*if* people are flagrantly abusing the post editing option - then a temporary (or possibly permanent) adjustment is in order. But is that actually happening at this point?

it makes no difference how many people do it. if there's a problem that can't be effectively dealt with after the fact, then it needs to be prevented.

it also has nothing to do with liberties for you good folks nor is it treating you like children. there's nothing personal about it. rules and policies need to be applied to all users for the smooth running of the site. we try to make them as non invasive and lenient as we can. i'm actually keeping an open mind about this and letting you suggest a reasonable time frame in which to edit posts. work with me?!

I did write to James about this off-list, and he seemed to mainly be concerned with spammers having the ability to edit their posts

i talked with james about this very briefly maybe a month ago and it was then that we agreed to test it out. we haven't discussed it since. i have talked to him a lot more about spam and that is the next thing we're working on so naturally that would be more fresh in his mind. i'll mention the edit post time limit to him again tonight before we go to sibo's gig/cd launch in a couple of hours.

which is completely different to the scenario you're proposing.

that is one of the many scenarios i proposed above. a breach of rules (1 of the things mentioned in the three bullet points in my last message) includes spam.

Now, if you guys need some admin help with spam-killing, that's another thing entirely

thanks, but we got this one

Also, fwiw, I used to do proofreading professionally, and can tell you from that experience that catching others' mistakes is easy, one's own, not so much.

good point. it's not a biggie though, by most people's reckoning. i'm thinking if you make a big/important mistake then you will pick it up fairly quickly. small mistakes could take longer.

but as i said, we will review it.

e2c wrote:Also, I'm surprised re. what you're saying about the board software (no editing by mods/admins)

that's not what i wrote. of course admin/mods can edit/delete posts. what i wrote was, if someone edits their post, the admin/mods can't undo the edit. 2 different things.

e2c wrote:Is this (possibly) a less full-featured version of phpBB? (And, if so, might it be possible for us to donate $ toward an upgraded software package?)

donations are always welcome

we spend considerable hours developing this site for free. plus all the regular maintenance necessary.

phpbb is open source and imo as good as the other 2 packages you mentioned (they all have their own advantages and we've grown to prefer the ones that are available with phpbb and its mods). so we are running on all cylinders, so to speak. we're going to add more mods and the next release is due soon, so things will be improving here.

e2c wrote:If you guys need to make some major, global changes (due to whatever), would it be possible for you to give us a heads-up as to what's happening, and (if possible) why?

yes i will make sure to do that from now on.

michi · by **michi** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:26 am

My five cents worth...

I often edit my own posts to remove typos. Like e2c, I have professional editing experience, and I agree that spotting other people's mistakes is one hell of a lot easier than spotting my own. I like to present a professional image, and I pride myself on correct use of the English language and, every time I look at one of my posts and spot a typo or grammatical error, I wince.

And, occasionally, I would like add a link to an existing post. Yes, I know, I could post a follow-up with the link. But, if the link is close to the original article, chances of it being seen when people follow search engine hits are much greater.

My suggestion would be to disable the edit limit and see how things go. Chances are that incidents that require intervention will be rare. And those could be dealt with by contacting the poster directly and explaining board policy or, in severe cases, by deleting a post (or the poster's account). I would enforce an edit time limit only if that proves to be unworkable.

If there has to be a time limit, I would suggest a week as a reasonable time frame.

Cheers,

Michi.

e2c · by **e2c** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:59 am

that's not what i wrote. of course admin/mods can edit/delete posts. what i wrote was, if someone edits their post, the admin/mods can't undo the edit. 2 different things.

Sorry, you lost me - really. If you can edit posts (by other people), how is it that you can't undo edits?

Seriously, I don't get it - unless what you're saying is that if someone edits something, you can't restore the text they cut/deleted, which makes complete sense to me. (Dang, text-only has big disadvantages as a communication medium - so, my bad!)

Re. spam-killing, please let me know if you need some additional help... I can't put in much time at it, but given the wide range of members/mod time zones, it seems like a lot is getting posted when you Aussies (and temporary Aussies) are asleep. But we're not.

(I don't know if this software allows for distinctions between mods and admins - vBulletin does, so I'm assuming - perhaps wrongly - that it's a possibility.)

e2c wrote:
If you guys need to make some major, global changes (due to whatever), would it be possible for you to give us a heads-up as to what's happening, and (if possible) why?

yes i will make sure to do that from now on. (bubudi)

Many thanks! That's really appreciated.

e2c · by **e2c** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:05 am

michi@triodia.com wrote:I often edit my own posts to remove typos. Like e2c, I have professional editing experience, and I agree that spotting other people's mistakes is one hell of a lot easier than spotting my own. I like to present a professional image, and I pride myself on correct use of the English language and, every time I look at one of my posts and spot a typo or grammatical error, I wince.

Hear, hear! Likewise. bubudi, I have to edit the hell out of copy (my own) that I've submitted for publication, due to the fact that most of the copy eds. I've worked with (as a writer) are stretched pretty thin... and no matter how careful I was/am, I always miss things. (Often quite glaring things, in fact.) I've done that here, on this board, often enough for it to be embarrassing *if* things are such that I can't catch the errors before the current time limit expires.

I realize this might not matter much to many other users, but equally, I bet there are some (besides michi and I) who'd like to have some flexibility on this.

And, occasionally, I would like add a link to an existing post. Yes, I know, I could post a follow-up with the link. But, if the link is close to the original article, chances of it being seen when people follow search engine hits are much greater.

I agree - that's partly where I'm coming from on this issue. Starting new posts - without the ability to link back to previous posts (which is possible with vBulletin and I.P. Board Pro) - can be awfully confusing, imo. If I'm really in that situation, I would rather be able to get into my original post, copy (with formatting) whatever's there, delete the original post and add all the previous stuff to a new post. (Again, this comes from my experience at proofing and copy editing.) Otherwise, things can end up being far more confusing than necessary...

My suggestion would be to disable the edit limit and see how things go. Chances are that incidents that require intervention will be rare. And those could be dealt with by contacting the poster directly and explaining board policy or, in severe cases, by deleting a post (or the poster's account). I would enforce an edit time limit only if that proves to be unworkable.

Exactly - again, I think the "pre-emptive strike" policy about post edits is borrowing trouble... (Kind of like putting on a hazmat suit to go out to the mailbox every day.) Any number of things could happen here, but it seems a bit extreme to create permanent limitations when the problems you're talking about are more potential than actual. (Again, if somehow there's a rash of problems with this, it makes sense that you'll choose to handle it a bit differently.)

If there has to be a time limit, I would suggest a week as a reasonable time frame.

I'll go with that, as far as if - but I do hope the time limits will be disabled. At the risk of repeating myself, I do think this is more of a case-by-case/as needed thing at this point. (Although granted, i don't see what's going on behind the scenes, so this is a kind of educated guesswork on my part.)

bubudi wrote:
i'm thinking if you make a big/important mistake then you will pick it up fairly quickly. small mistakes could take longer.

I wish! See the 1st 'graph of this post. Everyone writes and proofs differently - for a lot of us, it's a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees at times.

events

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